Rear sprocket and EPA questions

Discussion in 'Motorized Bicycle General Discussion' started by FlyJSH, Feb 10, 2009.

  1. FlyJSH

    FlyJSH New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    0
    Howdy all,


    I have spent the last few days reading and searching the forums and have a couple questions...

    It seems all the kits have rear sprockets that bolt/clamp onto the spokes. Does this cause trouble? Is there a more elegant solution? (Maybe something like a flip/flop hub?)

    On the two cycles, is a catalytic muffler the only change that makes them EPA certified? Is the seller's promise the only way to know if the engine is certified?

    I would prefer a four cycle (cleaner and no mixing) but the ones I have seen all look like weedeaters. Any suggestions?

    Thanks,
    j
     
  2. Easy Rider

    Easy Rider Santa Cruz Scooter Works

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,143
    Likes Received:
    2
    For the rear sprocket, King's Sales and Service sells a nice set up that fits on a rear disc brake hub.
    As for the second question...I'm sure someone else hear has the answer.
     
  3. Bikeguy Joe

    Bikeguy Joe Godfather of Motorized Bicycles

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2008
    Messages:
    11,529
    Likes Received:
    2
    EPA "certified"...heh heh...anyone can put a crappy sticker on the side of the engine.

    I think that's called "marketing hype". I could be completely wrong though.....
     
  4. junkyard

    junkyard New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    0
    from what i understand the EPA certified mufflers cost like $12....if thats the case i dont have any problem buying a new one so im compliant

    apparently the muffler with the catalytic converter can be put on any engine to make it epa compliant.....or am i missing something

    why dont they just sell the mufflers seperatly?
     
  5. tyrslider

    tyrslider New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    958
    Likes Received:
    0
    There are many "rubber donut sprocket" alternatives! I think it is the least desireable part of the kits.
    There is a Grubee mb hub that I use on a lot of the wheels I build that has a hub mounted sprocket. I also build disc mount hubbed wheels that can be used in conjunction w/ King's S&S products. I use hd spokes to further strengthen the wheels. There is also a clamshell adapter that clamps onto your hub, I've not used it, but heard good things!

    Solid Sprocket & HD Axle Kit w/Brake - $49.99

    I believe that hub mounting the sprocket is the single most effective way to make your mb more reliable. Good Luck!
     
    #5 tyrslider, Feb 12, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2009
  6. jasonh

    jasonh New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,590
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is no way a catalytic muffler is going to cost $12. I've seen a lot of these companies say their kit has a catalytic muffler, but it's really not. If you really want to be EPA compliant, 4-stroke would be easiest. But yeah, they're currently fugly, and I don't get that.
     
  7. cfs

    cfs New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    The following excerpts should be usefull to some folks. In effect it still says the vehicles under consideration are legal & un-regulated at the federal level. Cal. CARB regulations are much more stringent and rule out any common 2-stroke motorized bicycle or engine add on kit. Some other states also have thier own reg.s that you must comply with to do bus. in this field. Most large well established communist Chinese manufacturers have "catalytic mufflers" as an option, costing $11 to $30 additional per unit and coming with an "EPA certification", I recomend you get that option on your orders and have a copy of this "certfication" with your other paperwork submitted to the CPB and your customs broker.

    cfs

    =========================================



    This document references various quotes from two levels of U.S. law.

    The first level is Title 49, United States Code (U.S.C.), section 301. The U.S.C. is produced
    through the efforts of the U.S. Congress and the U.S. President.
    Safety Standards

    The other level of law is 49 Code of Federal Regulations 500-599 (CFR). Parts 500 through 599
    of the Code of Federal Regulation, are drafted and enforced by the National Highway Traffic
    Safety Administration (NHTSA):
    http://www.access.gpo.gov/cgi-in/cfrassemble.cgi?title=200449

    Do not be confused by the (accidental) commonality of the prefix (49) in the different laws. The
    laws are distinctly different from one or the other.

    Section 30102 defines “motor vehicle” as “a vehicle driven or drawn by
    mechanical power and manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads, and
    highways but does not include a vehicle operated only on a rail line.”

    Motor-driven cycle means a motorcycle with a motor that produces five (5) brake
    horsepower or less.

    Scooter means a motorcycle that:
    (1) Has a platform for the operator’s feet of has integrated footrests, and
    (2) Has a step-through architecture, meaning that the part of the vehicle forward of
    the operator’s seat and between the legs of an operator seated in the riding
    position, is lower in height than the operator’s seat.

    Two-wheeled or three-wheeled vehicle manufactured with vehicle identification
    numbers (VIN), certification labels, mirrors, turn signals, side marker lamps, and
    stop lamps (otherwise called on-road equipment) are regarded as “motor
    vehicles.” Vehicles lacking this equipment are not considered motor vehicles,
    and do not fall under NHTSA regulatory authority.

    Vehicles such as mopeds; dirt bikes; pocket rockets; off road scooters; etc., are
    not motor vehicles under NHTSA’s regulations. These and similar vehicles are
    regulated by the Consumer Product Safety Commission. www.cpsc.gov



    ================================


    Subpart E—Emission Regulations for 1978 and Later New Motorcycles, General Provisions
    Source: 42 FR 1126, Jan. 5, 1977, unless otherwise noted.


    § 86.401-2006 General applicability.
    This subpart applies to 1978 and later model year, new, gasoline-fueled motorcycles built after December 31, 1977, and to 1990 and later model year, new methanol-fueled motorcycles built after December 31, 1989 and to 1997 and later model year, new natural gas-fueled and liquefied petroleum gas-fueled motorcycles built after December 31, 1996 and to 2006 and later model year new motorcycles, regardless of fuel.

    [69 FR 2435, Jan. 15, 2004]



    § 86.401-97 General applicability.
    (a) This subpart applies to 1978 and later model year, new, gasoline-fueled motorcycles built after 31 December, 1977, and to 1990 and later model year, new, methanol-fueled motorcycles built after 31 December, 1989 and to 1997 and later model year, new, natural gas-fueled and liquefied petroleum gas-fueled motorcycles built after 31 December, 1996.

    (b) Motorcycles with engine displacements less than 50 cc (3.1 cu in) are excluded from the requirements of this subpart.

    (c) Motorcycles are excluded from the requirements of this subpart, if with an 80 kg (176 lb) driver, it cannot:

    (1) Start from a dead stop using only the engine; or

    (2) Exceed a maximum speed of 40 km/h (25 mph) on level paved surfaces.

    [59 FR 48512, Sept. 21, 1994]

    ==========================================

    A. What is a U.S. Version Vehicle?
    A U.S. version vehicle is manufactured in conformity with Federal emission requirements. The manufacturer attaches a label in the engine compartment that states, in the English language, that the vehicle conforms to all U.S. EPA regulations.

    A vehicle lacking the U.S. EPA emission compliance label is considered non-complying. Alternative proof is a written statement from the manufacturer's U.S. representative stating the vehicle is a U.S. version.

    EPA does not accept passing a state inspection test as proof. State inspection tests do not determine conformity with Federal emission standards.

    EPA also does not accept having a catalytic converter as proof. The presence of a catalytic converter does not mean the vehicle is a U.S. version, or that it meets Federal emission standards.


    =======================================

    The importation of an engine to be used in a heavy-duty vehicle or heavy-duty truck is a violation of the Clean Air Act unless the engine has a proper label indicating that it is covered under a certificate of conformity, or was built prior to 1970, or is otherwise excluded or exempted.
    c. Off Road Vehicle
    Any 2006 or later model year off road/recreational vehicles are subject to certification in accordance with 40 CFR Part 1051. Exclusion determinations for 2005 or earlier off road/recreational vehicles are based on the capability of the subject vehicles, not their intended or principal use. The vehicle:

    cannot exceed a maximum ungoverned speed of 25 miles per hour over level, paved surfaces, (Vehicles that are governed to a speed of 25 miles per hour or less may be excluded if the governor is deemed sufficiently tamperproof. EPA will make evaluations of governing devices upon request); or
    lacks features customarily associated with safe and practical street or highway use, such features including, but not limited to, a reverse gear (except in the case of motorcycles), a differential, or safety features by state and/or Federal law, (The mere deletion, removal or absence of features that can be readily added or the lack of U.S. Department of Transportation approval of safety features on the vehicle is not sufficient grounds for exclusion); or
    exhibits features which render its use on a street or highway unsafe, impractical, or highly unlikely, such features including, but not being limited to, tracked road contact means, an inordinate size, or features ordinarily associated with military combat or tactical vehicles such as armor and/or weaponry, (EPA regards vehicles that exceed any of the Federal weight or dimensional limitations placed on vehicles using the Interstate Highway System to be of an inordinate size). The Interstate limitations include a single axle weight of 20,000 pounds, a tandem axle weight of 34,000 pounds, a vehicle weight of 80,000 pounds, and a width of 102 inches, excluding safety devices. The weight limitations are actual vehicle or axle weights, not weight ratings.)
    EPA will make written determinations of exclusion for individual vehicle models upon receipt of dimensions, technical specifications and photographs or drawings of the model in question. While some vehicles can be easily determined to be excluded, particularly those of inordinate size, others require more review. An importer that makes his or her own determination does so at his or her own risk.

    Off road/recreational vehicles manufactured on or after January 1, 2006 are subject to EPA certification regulations 40 CFR Part 1051. The new regulations are primarily for 2006 and later model year off road vehicles.Consult the EPA nonroad entry form 3520-21 to determine applicability. The EPA entry form 3520-1 will no longer be used for the importation of off road vehicles.

    Requirements
    Complete form 3520-21 as applicable, declaring box 1 for 2006 or later model year certified vehicles. If the off road/recreational vehicle was manufactured before January 1, 2006 and is not a 2006 or later model then declare box 17, attaching proof that the vehicle was manufactured in 2005 or earlier and is a 2005 or earlier model and lacks safety or other features required for safe and practicalstreet operation including evidence of inordinate size or weight preventing highway use.
    Restrictions
    Any 2006 or later model year vehicle must be in accordance with 40 CFR 1051.
    Not for use by racing or competition vehicles; and
    Vehicle may not be registered or licensed for use on or operated on the public roads or highways. If an imported non-road vehicle is subsequently converted to a motor vehicle and registered or licensed for street use, the converter may be considered a manufacturer of a new motor vehicle and subject to a penalty of $25,000 per day for failing to meet EPA emission requirements.
    d. Racing vehicle
    The vehicle has in general been extensively modified for racing, and is incapable of safe and practical street or highway use because it lacks fe



    ===========================
     
    #7 cfs, Jun 26, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2009
  8. Norco John

    Norco John New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    87
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Catalytic converter"? Is THAT what that thing that looked like a strainer that fell out when I took my muffler apart to clean it was?
    Oh, the rubber donut rear sprocket? Been the most trouble-free part of my build, but then I'm not subjecting it to stoplight drag races or trying to pull wheelies, either.
     
  9. Finfan

    Finfan New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2008
    Messages:
    871
    Likes Received:
    1
    The "Manic Mechanic" i.e. CreativeEngineering sells a clamshell adapter for mounting the sprocket. I can attest that it is a great improvement over the rag joint hook up!
     
  10. Junster

    Junster New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2009
    Messages:
    445
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes the strainer looking thing was it. If you look at alot of the stickers now they say "approved for offroad use". Like Finfan said Creative Engineering/Maniac Mechanic has what I would call an elegant rear wheel adapter. Order his exhaust gasket too, you'll be glad you did.

    SPROCKET ADAPTER
     
  11. matt167

    matt167 New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    420
    Likes Received:
    0
    All the mufflers that are chrome can't be catalytic converter mufflers.. they are made sealed, and the contents of the converter ( mainly platinum and palidium ) cannot withstand the nickel/ chrome plating prosess.. if your engine has an EPA sticker and a chrome pipe, it's a fake sticker.. however none of the 2 strokes are C.A.R.B compliant so, truthfully, there not legal to be sold in California
     
  12. Cabinfever1977

    Cabinfever1977 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Messages:
    2,290
    Likes Received:
    1
    my engine does have a sticker thats saids epa approved for offroad use,but i dont care if i have approval for off road use,i dont see no cops in the woods.it should have said approved for onroad use. mine came with a black cat muffler and yes it does have palidium in it to act as a catalyst,but probally not the more expensive platinum.and thats why the cat mufflers are cheap.even a real generic catalytic coverter for a car with platinum is only like $89 anyway.
     
  13. matt167

    matt167 New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    420
    Likes Received:
    0
    Cat converters are at least 2 parts with Platinum and Pallidium. a car catalytic converter will have more of both, these engines likely have a small amount. after all, a very small 4cyl car engine at 1,600 CC is 24 times bigger than the biggest china 2 stroke

    the 2 strokes are technically not legal for onroad anywhere. they have no DOT markings and are therefor not certefied for onroad use. but may be legal for offroad with a genuine EPA sticker
     
  14. Norco John

    Norco John New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    87
    Likes Received:
    0
    The "Converter" is a separate part of the muffler, held in by the screw at the inlet end. the screw vibrated out of mine and when I took it apart to see what was going "clunk" inside as I moved it that's what fell out.
    Doesn't look like very much catalytic action was going on, it was oily. I left it out. Suppose I could get a nickle for all the precious metals in it?
    .xx.
     
  15. matt167

    matt167 New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    420
    Likes Received:
    0
    probably not much, as it's likely a small amount, as the engines at there biggest is less than 70cc..

    catalitic conversion just changes the chemical makeup of the exhaust gasses
     
  16. Nill

    Nill New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2009
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    I want to check my muffler to clean it. I removed the not on the bottom, but could not remove the bottom part of the muffler anyway. Does it screw on or just fit on? How do I get it off to check?
     
  17. marts1

    marts1 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2009
    Messages:
    392
    Likes Received:
    0
    I used vicegrips and a hammer on mine.
     
  18. Nill

    Nill New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2009
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks...I tried again and was able to pry it off with a little screwdriver pressure.
     
  19. marts1

    marts1 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2009
    Messages:
    392
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think its great when after you know something can be done you can then go ahead and do it. This group of people here when combined is nothing short of a miracle.
     

Share This Page