Old Guys Simplex moto-peddle bike

Discussion in 'Board Trackers and Vintage Motorized Bicycles' started by indian22, Jan 3, 2015.

  1. curtisfox

    curtisfox Well-Known Member

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    I like to make lawn decor and see what others do, so sometimes take the business loop through small towns just to see if any, just amazes me what people do or make. Always like to take the road closest to the sea or water. Would never see in normal travels, have a lot of good memories and pictures. Thanks for shearing yours...........Curt
     
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  2. PeteMcP

    PeteMcP Well-Known Member

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    Whatever the time frame, I'll be following your V-twin faux engine build with interest Rick. Have to admit I'm not a fan of those type of leccy bikes that have nothing but fresh air where a 'motor' should be. Your proposed engine housing build sounds a winner.
     
  3. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Pete quite awhile back I saw a Cyclone board track peddle bike on this forum with a really clever fake V twin engine, using China girl heads and jugs, (ahem) but just peddle powered.

    Some time latter Pat at Sportsman started building some great bikes with V-twin cased electrics and batteries in the tank and I really like their look, plus they have power to bust through fifty mph. Subsequently, as you are aware, other manufacturers have offered e-bikes with vintage V-twin flare. None except Pat's appear similar to a real ICE motor So I've been thinking about doing this for several years now. I'm shooting for the look an of an F-head H-D motor though powered by a 5,600 to 6,600 rpm e-motor. I've cut over forty plates of various sizes and shapes from steel and aluminum to this point & know that's just the start, but it's a good start.

    I'm not trying to fool anyone just want to create something interesting to look at, that will also function well for my transport.

    Rick C.
     
  4. Tom from Rubicon

    Tom from Rubicon Well-Known Member

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    With a similar crankcase motor housing like Pat's I suspect. A faux F Head? Sweet!
    Tom
     
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  5. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    True Curt riding through small town neighborhoods reveals some amazing creativity & collections of antiquities & dropping off the highspeed roadways when you smell the salt air and can only see the trees to find those routes that offer a view...that's touring that's satisfying and memories that last.

    Rick C.
     
  6. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    F head it is Tom with plenty of faux topping, how sweet remains to be seen. Your new Harley book has some excellent detailed photos of the intake over exhaust engines and the look I'd like to achieve. The engine case dimensions I'm initially working with are 20"x7"x10" mag "tombstone" case & oblong oil pump side plate not included in these dimensions. Crankcase side plates are 10" diameter, jug bore 2. 5" & jug fins 5" diameter so it's a substantial housing & not a light weight. The crankcase width allows me to experiment with various size motors up to 5 kw, but 2 kw, air cooled, will be first. Ease of motor swaps is a design priority. I'd almost bet this motor won't leak oil.

    I stacked 13 fins on one jug yesterday, without the head, to gain some visual perspective of what I'm dealing with, while considering the 45 degree twin design. It's not small even without the head which will add 3" + to the 8" jug height so I'm needing to lose close to 3" of jug height while retaining decent proportions. It's a process. I've already cut side plates that weren't quite right in cardboard and metal, so no big deal to fab some more, thanks to automation, remove a fin or two and cut the jug tube a couple of inches shorter.

    Once I committed to doing this, things have progressed pretty quickly, but it's not an inexpensive project given the quantity and cost of raw metal required alone (without mistakes) and if you don't have free machine shop time to cut the necessary plates ouch! I already have the raw materials and machine access to do it myself. Cutting these things by hand using hole saws would take forever in this thick plate and you would burn through a bunch of blades doing it. The real work is still in front of me. Motor and controller costs are relatively insignificant to the other project costs.

    By the time this fake is completed you will all have an good idea of either what to do and/or what not to do if you decide to mock up a power plus Indian or a four valve Harley e-motor of your own & do it better than my own F head H-D!

    Rick C.
     
  7. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Two jugs and 20 fins in place, two more fins & two base plates to go. Lots of little parts still to be fabricated for the head & jug, spark plug mounts, exhaust ports and exhaust push rod housings, Intake port passage flange and intake valve spring tower with rocker arms still to go for the top end to look realistic. The V plate that sets the 45 degree angle for the jugs is simple to construct and so vital to authentic look of a Yale or Harley F head motor. Other manufacturers of F head V twin engines, and they were numerous, designed their twins with different cylinder angles, as much as 90 degrees in a couple of motors. Harley stayed with the 45 degree F head design the longest and continued with the 45 degree V twin design into the modern era.

    While not intended as an exact copy of any period motor, my design is intended to accurately reflect the F head design elements of this type motor used by many of the early companies...regardless of the cylinder angles employed. The Harley & Yale motors were more compact, lengthwise, than those employing larger angles, making them easier to fit in a bicycle type frame, and that was a plus then and now and is a big reason that I'm going with the 45 degree design and it looks proper to my eye.

    Completed jug height with head and intake rocker/spring tower 10"

    Rick C.

    f head jugs.jpg
     
    #1867 indian22, Nov 6, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  8. PeteMcP

    PeteMcP Well-Known Member

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    What's going on? I searched for 'nice pair of jugs' and this came up....!
    Seriously Rick, I'm anticipating greatness here. What do you estimate the finished motor's weight to be?
     
  9. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Pete, lol... steel jugs and brass nipples are component terminology certain to get a rise, ahem, from the knowledgeable.

    Not light for certain as I've opted to use steel for most of the parts with a touch of aluminum and brass. The completed head and cylinder, without carb and exhaust stubs will weigh 10 lbs. each and the 2k motor adds another10 lbs.so I'd hazard 35 lbs. minimum with 40 lbs. quite probable and total weight of the bike less than 100lbs. with batteries. 270 lbs. bike and rider.

    2.5 hp at 5,000 rpm & 52 v.should get close to 40 mph on 26" tires at direct gearing ratio and 4 hp at 6,600 rpm 50 mph with 70 volts. Range though is more important to me than top speed along with keeping temps in a friendly range. I build bikes to ride, but like to look at them as well.

    Rick C.
     
  10. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    This is my general concept of the early F head design motors & the look I'm after.

    16.5x14"x7" overall the case diameter is 7" and the jug diameter 4". The dimensions are scaled down a bit from the original for easier frame fit, but the cam cover and magneto housing will probably require some additional offset to clear the pedal sprocket as well as using wide offset pedal levers. Loop frame of course.

    I'm also thinking my carb and intake pipes can be lowered as well to better reflect an original HD or Yale setup.

    Rick C.

    f head rendering.jpg
     
    #1870 indian22, Nov 7, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  11. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Actual photo of a 1915 HD twin to help spot the changes I'm making to this electric motor housing. I've already fabricated more than 50 parts from steel and aluminum. The two heads are cast finished aluminum that I've purchased & along with the carb and various fittings and fasteners these are the only the only off the shelf pieces used and many of these will require alterations before being used. Over 100 pieces total...including fasteners. I'd think it reasonable to say it's a fairly complex housing, case or box for an electric motor.

    I'd suppose after it's bicycle service life it could easily be converted for use as a desk fan and table lamp/paper weight for the home office.

    Dimensional scale seems pretty close judging from the photos. The photo I've shown is quite beautiful, but in my opinion it's way over restored especially for a racer, too many, plated, polished & shiny parts that do catch the eye but don't reflect what was actually offered for sale or raced in 1915.

    Rick C.



    f head 1915 twin.jpg
     
    #1871 indian22, Nov 7, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  12. sportscarpat

    sportscarpat Bonneville Bomber the Salt Flat record breaker

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    Interesting project, Rick. I had added the mag housing and various other bits to my electric case and messed with cast heads as well. The number of pieces and assembly time added up quickly. Figured I would add additional pieces later as options. What I did find that I thought was interesting is that once you make a case with enough structure to carry a powerful electric motor the combined weight of the case and motor easily matches that of similarly sized gas engines and the battery far out weighs a tank of gas. So no power to weight advantage with electric power trains, but I am sure you know this. Still, the smooth power delivery and ability to ride it just about anywhere, at least in my state of California, is the real advantage of electrics.
    Pat
     
  13. dogcatcher

    dogcatcher Active Member

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    I believe the real solution will be accomplished by the Chinese. One of these days they will buy an old vintage HD motor or something similar and clones it it fit a bicycle. A $$$$$ investment in an old engine, another big chunk of money for making mass produced molds. They will probably use the current Chinese engine parts like the connecting rids, the pistons rings etc.. Interchangeable in parts, less cost in inventory and manufacturing.

    First they have to see that the demand is high enough, the downside, the engines will be too large for most bicycles, and increases the speed past the legal limit for most states motorized bicycle laws. This will put them in the motorcycle category.
     
  14. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Pat your electrics are in a class by themselves. They truly have the vintage look, plus performance. No other manufacturer even comes close with their offerings of vintage style e-bikes...period.

    As a business man how many sales would you actually pick up and would your bottom line reflect enough profit to justify tinkering with additional stylistic motor case details? I know you've thought this through already.

    I'm just getting started on this one off project for no profit other than my own satisfaction & I've struggled with just how much detail is enough to please me, and I have no cost restraints to consider or time overruns involved. I don't operate as a business so I don't require any justification for my decisions involved. I like the the vintage look and have in mind to do one more "one off" classic motor case and that a simpler one to fabricate... an early Indian Power plus tribute L head motor.

    One design element I'm using is a motor cradle for the electric. I have 2k, 3k motors and will likely pickup a 5k as well. the case design is large & strong enough to quickly switch these motors out regardless of each motor's size and
    mounting configuration. They are mounted first to it's own unique cradle & each cradle utilizes the same fasteners to bolt up to the existing case patterns. I'll use a 48v thru 72 v controller.

    State laws and motor bicycles. I just deal. I like the electrics and the IC engines too & that's something else I don't feel anyone needs to justify, though they do and will continue doing. Me I'm just having fun with both!

    Rick C.
     
  15. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Valid insights Dogcatcher. I competed against the French, Germans and Orientals for most of two decades in foreign fields and they all do what they do best; each using their unique strategies and tactics which seldom vary from decade to decade. I dealt with it then as a reality, 'kinda like coping with the common cold virus. No cure just treated the symptoms.

    As a hobbyist I've no concern about what might come along one day 'cause at 72 years I know what's inevitable. In the meantime I build a few things that interest me, the way I want them and call it good. It's supposed to be entertaining and fun. When it's not I'll stop.

    Rick C.
     
  16. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Heads arrived. Just CG cast finish parts, my concession to using a readily available part that has a vintage look about it. There is another CG head on the market that would lend itself to the Indian side valve engine. Three mods are necessary to transform this head to a realistic F head look. (1) Normal spark plug hole becomes the location for overhead intake valves spring tower and rocker arm base. (2) Intake ports need to be fabricated low on the heads between the cylinders to connect a carb and (3) Spark plugs are re-located to the lower edge of the heads...these are angled slightly up and located right of the jugs center line about ten degrees. None of this is really difficult, as nothing has to actually function as a working motor. It just requires the look of a motor that could function. It's time consuming however because all the parts have to be made or altered substantially; including the heads and carb. In a certain sense fabricating tall radial fin heads from scratch might have been easier to do than modifying an existing head. Which I will certainly do should this head conversion not please me.

    This project is intended as a generic F head motor housing, not as a replica of any one engine manufacturer, but rather a composite of F motors from this period of time. Though the general component configuration is primarily that of the 45 degree 1915 HD design.

    Rick C.

    f cast heads 1.jpg f cast heads 2.jpg
     
    #1876 indian22, Nov 8, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
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  17. PeteMcP

    PeteMcP Well-Known Member

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    Coming along nicely Rick. Your schematic drawing definitely has the look. Love it when a drawing is transformed into actual metal components. Only thing missing will be the distinctive HD sound.
     
  18. dogcatcher

    dogcatcher Active Member

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    Right now there are some Chinese engineers reading through this thread trying to keep up with your build, waiting for you to post the next step. While their numbers crunchers are trying to figure out what the cost will be to get this project into a manufacturing mode.
     
  19. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Pete I'm pleased with progress to this point. I have no doubt as to your pleasure seeing flat plans turn into 3 dimensions through your modeling kits. Incredible gift you have to translate flat to form. Exponential Origami!
    Now as to the lack of sound from E-bikes, motorcycles and autos. That is a major plus to some and major problem to others...however I fall in between & can get my auditory fix through riding one or the other depending on my mood which can be soothed by either or both as in the case of riding my hybrid.

    The current majority of Harley and Indian riders will likely never adjust to the lack of audio rumble from electric power. Perhaps Blue tooth through the helmet audio & adjusted to the bikes own rpm in real time would be an appropriate option for the hard core with lots of amplification for mere pedestrians (anyone not riding a Harley might as well be on foot) & that's the reality of the H.O.G.s.

    Rick C.
     
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  20. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Dogcatcher I'd be flattered if they are and surprised if they're not.

    Business is more akin to warfare than to gaming in many countries. In 1978 I took a working prototype and exacting performance parameters to South Korea for bid which included the final production design, product testing, quality control, warranty assurance etc. In ten days time they returned an initial bid package that was 50% under our best minimum bid estimate and 20% under the nearest competitive bid's final number. We negotiated with them for over a month & received an addition 15% off in ancillary costs involved in shipping, insurance and any extraordinary delivery delays. It was a dramatic business experience for me and quite profitable, but in subsequent business dealings I learned a lot about their manufacturing capabilities and resolve. I now believe they could have turned a nice profit at 15% less than was actually paid per piece. I'm certain they felt they had screwed me hard. This was a major Korean company with state of the art design and production capabilities that I'd never before seen anywhere.
    Fast forward to today and real quality enhanced production has spread throughout the Orient. If we can dream it they can build it for less.

    I've heard talk of Oriental junk (some was and is) since the fifties and I still hear it and read posts on this forum that repeat it, but don't think they can't and won't build quality products and do when we are willing to pay a little extra for that quality and yes they will steal your dreams before you even go to sleep...this is war to them, not a game. We laughed when first Honda then Suzuki etc. started importing this "made in Japan junk", but price, styling, performance and dependability shut down, those who couldn't & wouldn't compete; mighty U.S. and European cycle manufacturers out of the business in less than ten years.

    I'd hope we would learn from the past, but it's easier to rest on our ancestry's laurels. The bottom line is if the Chinese ever do manufacture classic style motor housings they will be much less expensive and more readily available for those that want the look of classic and the sound of silence on their e-bikes. Ride on and have fun!

    Rick C.
     
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