Old Guys Simplex moto-peddle bike

Discussion in 'Board Trackers and Vintage Motorized Bicycles' started by indian22, Jan 3, 2015.

  1. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    I started building a combination vertical stand for the engine that will also serve as a fixture for aligning the chain drive and allow me to safely work on the motor in the vertical attitude and to power it up on the bench.

    I actually have a loop frame section bent out of 1" steel tube that will be a part of this work stand. the radius matches the Sportsman loop frame dimension, though the abbreviated straight down tubes don't accurately match that frames geometry; as I didn't feel it necessary for my use as a work stand. The Sportsman frame and tank is my choice for this motor.

    I'm getting quite close to making some bench runs with the cased e-motor & internal drive connected.

    Rick C.
     
  2. fasteddy

    fasteddy Well-Known Member

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    The motor is coming together in a grand manner Rick. There will be a lot of puzzled people when you quietly glide away after getting on it. I agree with Pete that it will only be a matter of time before the pirates that stole Pat's bike frame and parts will be offering your motor as an option.

    Trying to make something that is historically accurate and acceptable to yourself is trying to say the least. I would never have tried to do the Indian tri car had I realized what was involved. I am looking forward to making a tri car based on a Sportsman Flyer and to see how fast it would have been to build it if had I done that in the first place.

    The aluminum foil as a guard when welding is priceless and timely for me. I am planning a run to the metal supply and a square foot of copper for a welding guard was on the list. They have some that is a heavy foil and can be twisted to fit in tight places. It's replacement is in my kitchen drawer.

    I'm welding up an adjustable light to help with welding. Using a brake rotor from a jeep as the base with a length of 3/4" round bar as the upright. Slipped a short length of 1" heavy walled tubing onto the round bar with a drilled and tapped hole in the tubing so I can install a 3/8" bolt in it with a piece of steel welded to the bolt head as a key. This will allow it to be moved up and down.

    Twenty inches of 1" square tubing will be welded to the 1" round tubing and a single halogen work light will be mounted to the end of the square tubing. This way I can raise and lower the light to where I need it and the work light tilts so it can be focused where it's needed.

    My eyes are getting worse with age as well. I save up everything up that I need to do and try to do everything once every ten days or so. With Amazon and eBay and so many local stores offering inexpensive shipping I don't need to go out often.

    I have become the one thing I feared all my life, old, and I'm trying to accept it with all the grace and dignity I can. I'm doing a darned poor job of it.

    Stay well and keep the faith.

    Steve.
     
  3. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Steve metal working is so multi-faceted and those who have a lifelong engagement in the activity often forget what they know...just do it, assuming that "everyone knows" this stuff so it's seldom if ever shared with others. I trained using copper "backers" on joints...now I just use aluminum plate for the purpose when required: cheap, light, durable and cools quickly. I often use these just to protect a wood bench from catching fire. Aluminum has lots of uses during the various welding processes of steel.

    You can't weld what you can't see....as well. A good weldor can weld where he can't see, just not as pretty. If this weren't the case muffler shops would never have stayed in business! Just a practical observation not a certified one. Getting good light on it and a decent helmet, with proper corrective lens is a big help for many who are vision impaired.

    Welding spatter is a huge problem when joining steel around precision components or "finished" surfaces where disassembly isn't very practical, but would be warranted if practical protection couldn't be provided. Heavy fiberglass blankets are used on large projects, but foil or thin aluminum sheet works on the smaller items. Tig is best indoors and also greatly reduces fire hazard, but's not practical to use outside the shop, especially in structural work. Stick & flux wire are not impaired by wind, though fire hazard is greatly increased. Tig is absolutely useless in even a breeze and mig shield is blown off easily outdoors. Books are written about each element involved in welding and there are scores of elements to consider and then master. I've hired hundreds of "certified" weldors & I asked each by whom and on what? Each was then certified by my company, regardless of how many years they had welding professionally or not hired at all and each hire then went through a six weeks probationary training program prior to becoming a full hire.

    All this and I say home builders can and do build some nice, safe bikes and do much of the welding themselves, using inexpensive flux or gas process welders. I'd suggest watching a lot of YouTube videos coupled with lots of practice.

    Rick C.
     
  4. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Most of you guys that follow know I'm not a fan of paint, on sheet metal especially, for my vintage builds. I enjoy paint on others bikes, just not my own. Of all the tints available the matts in black, grey, silver and appliance white are my palate selection. However coatings are normally beneficial for metal protection from oxidation and most find paint an attractive form of protection for their creations and relatedly easy to apply. The alternatives of powder coating and plating are more durable, attractive though less easy to apply. Paint, plating and powder coat can be used on the same build so we have even more options to choose from and this variety allows for great creativity in the completed bike. If you consider all the China girl motors that have been mounted on just the 6 most commonly used frame styles and running black cruiser style rubber. Thousands of these and yet the diversity of color and type of coatings used set each them apart from all the others though each are component wise using the same basic parts.

    So you see I'm not against coatings either for metal protection or cosmetic variety. I just have my personal likes and am glad most others build quite different when it comes to coatings.

    I prefer my vintage style bikes appear old, but well kept. I also prefer raw metal appear that way though "protected" from damaging oxidation and this type of oxidation can be prevented and controlled by well know, yet seldom used processes other than those previously mentioned.

    Rick C.
     
  5. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Steve I actually would be flattered to see others incorporate my initial thoughts, in whole or part, into viable commercial projects or just for themselves. So I share openly. I'm past the point that I want to duplicate my efforts with duplicate builds. One off items are interesting to me. I'll let others tend to making money from it...if they can it will be well earned & their conscience clear. Understand that I'd feel quite differently if my livelihood depended on it, but it doesn't. I'll be excited to watch you build the electric tri-car...that has the potential to be a great project. I'm still a gas bike guy, but really get the utility and appeal of electrics now that I've lived with three of them over the last 9 months or so and I find myself riding these, hybrid included, 90% of the time now.

    Not so long ago most everything used to build a one off motorized bike had to be fabricated in part or in whole by the individual builder. Today most everything used can be purchased from resourceful designers & fabricators like Pat D. and I find it a waste of my time to duplicate what is available and works so well. Quality products that lend themselves to use on vintage bike builds are huge time savers...time that could well be spent on meticulous assembly and finish, motor work and various unique items not commonly available. I don't feel I'm cheating because I buy these when they fit my design. If they don't that's when I build a leaf spring fork like I did for my Simplex Copper gator. I've built frames, forks, laced wheels, machined parts, modified motors etc. & find repeating these tasks boring and tedious. Nothing wrong with doing it yourself, but been there done that applies at my age. If nothing else I'd rather be riding. I like to build different things it's fun to me to figure a way & solve a design puzzle.

    The e-V twin case is just me having fun. This far into it's construction I've already come up with design changes I'd have liked to incorporate in this 1915 F head case. Some small improvements, but others more significant like a disc brake contained in the crank case and an internal, powerful yet compact fan system. Wish I had just didn't, but make one I can build another better and of course more powerful; though motors over 5 kw I'd say liquid cooling is mandatory, but building a second just like this one, never going to happen. Bigger motors would require a larger loop and a few inches of stretch as well...that also isn't a big deal.

    Rick C.
     
  6. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    I'm setting up a small lathe 7" x 16" for an aircraft parts company which specializes in vintage aircraft restorations and will be training staff as well in it's operation. Small parts, low tolerance requirements for mostly interior bits and pieces that are long out of stock items that are now hard to find in salvage as well...so expensive. This is a favor for the owner, but as I utilize his shop equipment from time to time it's also payback. Nice thing about retirement is I can choose to do these things or not. I chose to not personally clean the shipping gunk from the machine, but left that to the paid help and that went for lifting and locating the lathe mount. Shimming is where I became involved in the setup, though I will handle the slide, tool post, chucks (4 & 3 jaw + faceplate) and tailstock cleanup and lubrication. I want to make sure the chucks jaws are clearly marked for re-assembly and future use & these parts properly lubricated and installed. It came with a steady rest, with bearings, and a quick change tool post. Also has a digital speed readout but no DRO's on the tailstock, compound or cross, though they are available options. Dual power feed screw. No saddle lock though, which I may have to make....we'll see.

    Operating safety, routine maintenance, basic theory, tools and proper use of measuring instruments and work setup. Then basic operations: facing, turning, boring , parting, drilling and tapping plus knurling and chamfering, should keep them busy for awhile. Pretty sharp guys so I'd say a couple hours a day for five or six days should get them ready to turn out the first run of parts for delivery...even if I do most of them myself. I doubt this lathe will hold to much less than a .001" at best but for what they're needs are even that's overkill! Mini-lathe & rigidity should not be used in conjunction, though this is one of the higher quality machines, relatively speaking. I'll let you know once I've got it tuned in and turn a few test rods with the 3 jaw.

    Still just having fun & now making chips & dips, I mean swarf!

    Rick C.
     
    #2046 indian22, Jan 10, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
  7. FOG

    FOG Well-Known Member

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    Being completely unschooled on the subject I spent days setting up my lathe bed with a Machinists Level. Which is an incredibly sensitive tool that kept changing on me. The bubble would be one place in the morning and somewhere else later that day.

    I never touched it ... but somehow it moved?

    Temperature change. Yeah! I know that sounds crazy but I proved it. Several confusing days later I threw my propane butt warmer under the bench and watched that bubble walk right over to the other side.

    Here's the incredibly sensitive source of that confusion;

    DSCF0858[1].JPG

    Apparently my desk is way off!
     
  8. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    FOG somewhere in my storage I have a Starrett level that cost a small fortune. I need to locate it.

    WARNING: Constant monitoring with these levels has been known to induce psychosis in the overly compulsive. It's recommended that trained medical personnel should be present to monitor while in use.

    Rick C.
     
  9. lewdog7431

    lewdog7431 Active Member

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    Wow that's awesome R, I've taken machine technology in city college as a certificate course in 2004-5 and man you just brought it all back to my mind what the old school instructor had taught us with the bridgeport milling machine and lathe the basics manual machining is some fine mac shop skills over all, long story short I enjoyed learning the manual way to machine parts but then it's nice and all but the CNC has taken most of that learning curve out of the equation in some places now a day but man thanks for the flash back I appreciate your efforts and sharing your knowledge with us all ..........Lewdog
     
  10. Ralph hop

    Ralph hop Active Member

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    From what little I know about aircraft, they have a high standard so much that only certified cleaning chemicals can be used. Talked to a car guy and he only used aircraft certified.
     
    #2050 Ralph hop, Jan 11, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  11. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Lew some would say I share too much too often and I'd definitely agree they make a good point.

    Rick C.
     
  12. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Weather forecast is really good next three days, two days ago it was 65 degrees next day 5 degrees wind chill yesterday back up to low sixties and today low seventies...in January!

    I've got two bikes that need front brake pads (Avid mechanicals) as well as a few minor adjustments and then I'll get back to the V-twin. I ordered a full 4' x8' sheet of 1/8" steel plate & one sheet of 3/16" aluminum for the electric V- twin flathead motor that I'll start on next. I can get all the plates cut out and ready to assemble and I'll downsize this one a bit to fit a V frame Sprint bike....I'm a fan, especially the V twin Crocker's, but like the minimal style of the lot. Though I like the Crocker's, they were OHV, so the 1920 Indian power plus side valve will serve as my guide for a flat head style e-V twin motor case.

    Rick C.

    1920 daytona powerplus.jpg
     
  13. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    These Indian Power plus engines are really clean designs when compared to early F and OHV motors of the early teens...and not as cluttered as latter model became. The 1920 Daytona power plus engine was simple and rather elegant when mounted in the spartan race frames, not so much on the road bikes however. Though I like the leaf spring girder fork which literally screams "Indian" I prefer the straight girder fork on the race frame.

    If I decide to go 5 kw and 72 volts this "Powerplus look" would be my choice of a V twin E- motor case mounted on a "Keystone" frame.

    Rick C.
     
    #2053 indian22, Jan 14, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  14. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    I found this photo of a HD rider and bike powered by an F head engine. Imagine the stain on the rider holding this position repeatedly during a 100 mile race at speeds in the 90's, at that time, for many of the top racers. Truly these were iron men of the day!

    Note the bikes minimal ground clearance. This is HD's "Keystone" design race frame initially available only to factory sponsored team riders (Indian used a similar design called the Marion frame) which cut the bottom of the loop frame out allowing the motor to be mounted just above the board track

    Rick C.

    . Harley F head twin race bike.jpg
     
  15. sportscarpat

    sportscarpat Bonneville Bomber the Salt Flat record breaker

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    Interesting picture, Rick. As I work away in my shop building two different versions of my "Harley style" forks (and a couple Keystones) I can"t help but look closely at the details of the forks on the bike in your picture. I have learned these forks work well and even better with some sort of damping. I don't seem to see a typical scissor type friction shock in the photo but I notice what appears to be leather wrap between the front and rear legs of the forks. Could this be some sort of damping?
    Pat
     
    #2055 sportscarpat, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  16. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Good eye Pat. I saw a HD track bike at a show years ago that had the legs wrapped in leather and I asked the owner what purpose the leather served; his answer was it was a shock absorber. I reasoned later that what he meant applied to rebound damping and he'd used the term shock absorber in the general sense. Damping between fork legs with two leather discs was used on quite a few marques. As you well know real racers do what they do no matter the style points. Photos are the only other examples I've seen of this and they are few and far between, one was a French Dedion-Bouchard bike. I'd think this form of damping was a really slow cycle response, which for relatively smooth track conditions could be an asset. The scissor damper had been around for a good while when this photo was taken, I'm guess late teens early twenties on the tank style and the valve over exhaust engine. I'd suspect this as a factory team bike rather than independent entry as it seems to have both the bell and the whistle components of the day.

    You've got the best looking HD forks that are available and it doesn't surprise me that the friction scissor make a noticeable difference on them for the street because winning racers used them for many years.

    Rick C.
     
  17. sportscarpat

    sportscarpat Bonneville Bomber the Salt Flat record breaker

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    Thanks Rick, and thanks for taking the time to give this some thought. I have learned a lot with the Harley fork design and the shock certainly helps with the clunking around in forks, slowing the action in both directions, as well as reducing any movement fore and aft between the front and rear legs. I use two different diameter pistons in the front legs based on if I am using .120" or .090" wall. I had to sort an issue once on a gas bike where the handlebars had some vibration that wasn't normal and the bike would clunk entering my driveway over the small 1" driveway to street transition. I finally figured out I had used the smaller diameter piston in the larger bore fork leg. This added additional free-play between the legs, causing the vibration and the clunking. This was on a bike without the shock. I then realized how much the shock helped to smooth things out. I now run the shock regardless of added cost. I would venture to guess the "friction gators" in the photo served two purposes, damping of the suspension and reduction in vibration. Big piece of leather making the whole bike smoother. I have a leather guy and it seems a simple deal to make up some real nice leather gators and experiment a bit. Bet they will look cool, too, but if one ever came lose and wrapped up in the front wheel it would be a disaster.
    Pat
     
    #2057 sportscarpat, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  18. FOG

    FOG Well-Known Member

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    I need to learn more about early front suspension systems. Please keep talking .... ;)
     
  19. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Pat I slept on your last post & this morning got up early to stare at a few of my forks and think about that leg vibration. I like the term "gator" and shall from here on refer to the leather leg bindings as such. I believe that fork vibration would be improved with the gator's installed and just think how any lessening of vibration to the riders hands during fifty and one hundred mile races or 20 to 25 mile heats would aid in competition, plus the added feel of stability during the ride is such a confidence builder. Vibrations to me are warnings to back off though simple secondary harmonics can safely be pushed through to a smooth ride at higher speeds; when encountered the first time I want to verify that the bike is solid and safe before attempting to push through it. Racers didn't really have that option in a race; drop out you lose.

    Gator's would need be fail proof & crafted for safety, but like well crafted and installed fenders they could be quite safe and yes designed by a master of saddlery they would really make a vintage racers fork stand out at shows. Stopping prospective customers to ask the questions and really see the whole bike. Engagement leads to sales.

    The gators were more than band aids on these race bikes, but as you noted Pat free play between the legs is a problem and as you sorted out the interior piston diameter, though a small size difference, it was causing a quite noticeable problem. You corrected the piston problem and didn't just cover it up with the addition of your scissor shock, but because the shock made a noticeable difference in an extreme case it's now a device you typically install these forks.

    Articulated forks using leg rockers are another area that the gators could make a difference in both rebound and vibration. Especially the low cost dual spring forks like the Sunlight and Monarch, nice forks for the price, but bouncy and I suspect at higher speeds some probably have some vibration as well that a well made gator would probably make a huge difference in ride quality. Here's the rub (been waiting for the pun opportunity) proper fitting of the gators to each specific fork would be trial and repeat coupled with periodic adjustment as wear coupled with the elements works on leather. I've noticed this on scissor and other style friction shocks utilizing leather discs, but that is really quite an easy adjustment process when compared with the gators, unless a tensioning device be crafted into the design for this purpose. I'd think it easy enough to do.

    Vintage forks wind me up, so I'll stop here for the moment by saying Pat's Sportsman Flyer Harley style forks are spectacular check them out. All his work is first class!

    Rick C.

    HD forks Sportsman Flyer.jpg
     
  20. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Ok Pat I can't help myself. I've a simple suggestion for adjustability of the gators. A pair of compression plates located between the fork legs, one placed inside the fork legs the other an exterior plate. These would be bolted together allowing the plates to be adjusted by squeezing the two plates together changing the shock rate. The metal compression plates could each be backed by a thick strip of leather to protect each side of the gator bands. Brass would look nice on these gators.

    Rick C.
     

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