Internal geared hubs, Whats good,What ain't

[bowljoman]

I did both CVT for awhile and then switched to internal hub. Not only was the nexus the same price as a cvt+a spare belt, I could not find a chinese CVT that was not junk and needed new bearings. I pushed that thing home many times and spent more money on belts than I can remember. Always had to have a spare. Once I got the CVT set up correctly, I began breaking clutch drums. Yea, a combination of 52cc's of heavy duty torque and cheap chinese CVTs. Maybe your normal china girl with peddle assist doenst break these things so easy, but my no-peddle recumbant scooter motor can pump it out below 6000 rpm's.

So.... I set up the internal hub as a jack-shaft. I use the shimano nexus 3 speed that is sold for torker tricycles. It has a sprocket for the right side in place of a spoke flange and makes it 'ready made' for my application. The nexus absolutely ROCKS!.

52 cc. 2-stroke scooter engine with a 5-to-1 reduction transmission and a 12 tooth output sprocket. Stock configuration, tops out some where between 6800 and 7600 rpm's under load.

The frame is a monster cheap ass steal stand-up scooter with a bicycle front end. The thing weighs a ton compared to a regular bike frame.

Set up as a jack-shaft, I can develop 42 MPH in third, fully loaded with tools, and with lights blazing off the front dyno-hub.

1st pulls up to 20.

2nd starts pulling around 15 and gets me to 30+.

3rd begins to hit the torque at 27 mph and gets me to 42.

The system cruises very quietly and raises little suspicion from the cops while rolling 25mph in 3rd due to the lower rpms.

My next hub will be the 5 speed. I believe it will get me to 60 mph.

The hub never even gets warm. As a jack shaft is is very efficient and allows you to gauge the amount of torque it needs to handle by adjusting sprocket and wheel sizes.

If you have doubts about a hub's ability to handle the power, increase the RPM's that it spins and translates. Assuming you do a jackshaft, the higher the rpms of the hub, the less over-all torque per linear foot that the hub must process.

Here is my gear calculator.

http://www.thebitstream.com/scoot/

So simple to set up for me,

WaaHoo! lets blaze!

 

[4950cycle]

Hey, I've seen that rig somewhere before. Looks effecient. I like the turnbuckles keeping and getting everything where it is suposed to be. Played with your ratio calculater a long time. I use the tooth count to do the ratio math and then translate it to sheaves (pulleys). They slip just a tad but I use that to temper the 4 stroke torquey tug of the Greyhound that can be rough on the drivetrains. And also I'm mainly addicted to how silent belts are. Not to mention the dependibility. I really think its worth the extra effort and expense to go belt once you know what ratio is your friend. Oviously before you apply an IGH.

 

[rustycase]

BMan, Wow! That sure looks like fun!
I'll bet it's like riding a grasshopper!

I tried to find the best price on those hubs, but no luck so far.
Great write-up you've done on it.

I have some SA hubs I'll eventually try, but shall keep my eye open for that 3spd you mention.

I'm not looking for hi-speed. That will probably just draw more attention, and I don't have far to go, or need to make the trip in a hurry. I'd probably go for 25 tops for transport.

Tnx for the fun post!
rc

 

[bowljoman]

hey, there is a new one now. you have a choice. Ther sturmey sprocet is a bolt on.

Torker Tri Star 3 Speed Coaster Brake Hub

Torker TriStar Sturmey Archer 3 Speed Coaster Brake Hub

 

[Venice Motor Bikes]

Just to give some info on the set up I used on the Slater... It has a 66cc HT that was fully internally ported with port matched intake & SBP exaust. I also milled the jug & head down a bit to increase compression. Then I ran it through a SBP HD shifter kit....

I can say that one time after a few beers I was riding the bike pretty hard & 'banging' shifts as fast as I could to see what it could do!! Never a problem!

The guy I sold the bike to isn't a very good rider & I know that he rides it hard (& misses a lot of shifts) but the hub still works perfect!

My honest opinion is that it's a great hub, but it has way too many gears! (First gear is low enough to climb a tree.)
The next shifter bike I build is gonna have a Nexus 3-speed with a disc brake. (But they are only 32 spoke.)

Anyways, that's my report on the Shimano Alfine 8-speed disc brake hub.

 

[BarelyAWake]

My honest opinion is that it's a great hub(Shimano Alfine 8-speed), but it has way too many gears! (First gear is low enough to climb a tree.)
The next shifter bike I build is gonna have a Nexus 3-speed with a disc brake. (But they are only 32 spoke.)...

I can see the logic, but figured I'd mention that if there's anything I was even mildly bothered by w/my Sturmey Archer X-RD3 3-Speed is there wasn't quite the gear spread I'd hoped... given it's "supposed" to be for pedaling, the three gears are somewhat close together & while you can ofc change the primary gears (jackshaft) to alter your finals - it always seems to be just a hair too tall (lil boggy) or a lil bit too short (winds out). I mean I love the thing, but in hindsight an' all

X-RD3 Gear Ratio
■ Overall Range - 177%
■ Gear 1 - 0.75 (-25.0%)
■ Gear 2 - 1.00 (Direct Drive)
■ Gear 3 - 1.33 (+33.3%)

If ya can find them, a 4, 5 or even 6 speed would be the best compromise I think

 

[4950cycle]

Wow, Good report on the Shamano 8 speed ! Boy , You shure have a lot of dough in that setup. But its worth it if it works well and is durable. Can't get a lighter motorcyle. Think about it. And ditto on the 3 speed vs. 8 speed

 

[rustycase]

Well, shucks!
32 holer... that's kind of a deal killer, isn't it? ...unless you also want to go with 12, or 11g spokes and a new rim. Gosh, that bumps the price quite a bit!
I guess Niagara has more in their selection of 36 hole hubs???
Tnx
rc

 

[driftology]

i am gonna toss a vote to the Sturmey Archer X-RD3 3-Speed w/drum. i have one of those on my build with a super rat. i am goin on 300 miles so far with no issues. even with some bad shifting (hitting the trigger by accident while at WOT). i will say in general i am with nice on it with the sifting. i clutch each gear when i can. its nice that the second gear is directly driven. i spend most of me cruising time there.

 

[recumbentbill]

I use a sturmey IGH 3 speed powered by a Honda GXH 50 mated to a grubee stage 3 gearbox which drives a SBP shift kit. Over a 1000 miles on the Sturmey . I agree with other IGH users about not speed shifting . I baby mysturmey when shifting. I might add that i am using the 23tooth cog instead of the 16T cog that comes with the sturmey. Bike climbs the hills and tops out at 30 in 3rd and best of all NO Pedaling required for take off. Do wish I had gone with the Sturmey drum brake. Very Pleased with this set up

 

[scotto-]

Well in regards to the Shimano Nexus 3-speed with disc brake and stacked 22t rear cogs running at 12:1 ratio in second gear and powered by the Kawasaki 124cc 4-stroke on the tandem build, the hub is pretty much toasted after racing at Willow Springs with it. Wasn't shifting hard or abusing this set-up.....it just couldn't take the torque of this engine and I was riding solo on it, not with a stoker as planned.

It worked great for the race with nice quick, smooth Shimano shifting, but first gear started playing up by the end of the day and now just spins (internal failure). I was just hoping it was the three nubs on the cogs shearing and causing it to spin.....not so to my amazement.

Now gonna try to find an X-RK5(N) or X-RK5(W) Sturmey Archer 5-speed w/disc brake (looks nearly impossible to find mind you), or go single speed (still jack-shafted) running gears for pedal assist worse case scenario. A bit bummed the Shimano didn't hold up, but someone's gotta put em to the test.....right?

 

[4950cycle]

That sounds like a great MB ! The best of all the worlds. I would gear mine for a greater top speed in 3rd gear though since you have enough motor to do so.

 

[JRock21584]

Ok so I'm a little late to this thread but... I have a nu Vinci n171 hub, sbp shift kit, grubee sky hawk 66cc and all I can say is that it rocks!!!!! I started off with the standard 44 tooth sprocket on the left and it was very fun to ride, topping out at around 38.3. Then I decided to step up my game with a shift kit and a new hub.. So once I got the hub on I instantly noticed a difffence in low end performance! There are so many gears I don't even use them all half the time lol.... Needless to say I can now cruise at 35 easily with out even sweating the engine! wot I can go 42 on flat ground and 45 down hill!!

 

[4950cycle]

Yea, Not to be an arse but you left out a very inportant part of your performace statement. What is your personal weight ? Means everything in MB performance (very small engines). A 85 lbs. kid can blow my doors off on the same exact rig I'm riding just because of the fact that I'm 230 lbs. . And I'm not the only one on this forum that is no fly weight. There is a lot of full grown (maybe a little over grown, lol) men on this sight that hope for simular performance that a 110 lbs. teenage posted. Then he thinks the kid or smaller man is lying about it.

 

[JRock21584]

Yea, Not to be an arse but you left out a very inportant part of your performace statement. What is your personal weight ? Means everything in MB performance (very small engines). A 85 lbs. kid can blow my doors off on the same exact rig I'm riding just because of the fact that I'm 230 lbs. . And I'm not the only one on this forum that is no fly weight. There is a lot of full grown (maybe a little over grown, lol) men on this sight that hope for simular performance that a 110 lbs. teenage posted. Then he thinks the kid or smaller man is lying about it.

Yea I hear ya... Wel I'm 5'7" and ne where from 135-140...i haven't really weighed my self in a while since my scale its broke and all my money goes to my bike projects lol....

 

[jon.karak]

My first Motorized Bicycle was a 4-stroke 49cc with a Sick Bike Parts shift kit and traditional 7-speed dérailleur. It lasted almost a year of regular commuting, but the sprockets did not last very long at all. They wore out in about 8 months, which translates to about 4 times faster than a strictly pedal powered bike. I could cruise at about 25-30mph, and a fuel efficiency of 125-130 MPG. Me, plus my gear, weighs about 200lbs.

A dérailleur is definitely cheaper than an Internally Geared Hub, and is much easier to service. The good news is that with seven sprockets, even when one or two gears are worn down, you can still get home without having to push. But the final analysis, in my opinion, they just don't hold up to the rigors of motored bicycling. I've looked for heavy duty sprockets, but found nothing other than titanium 10 speed (i.e. high-priced roadbike) sprockets.

So now I'm in the process of building my second MB. I upgraded to an 8-speed Shimano Alfine shifter. I chose the Alfine over the NuVinci for a few reasons. Product reviews of the NuVinci hub are not glowing. The hub itself is heavy and resists free-wheeling, but more importantly, it doesn't "index" shift. I need indexing because whatever "twisting" I do actually controls my throttle. I tried having both, but it was impossibly awkward to have more that one twist control on the same handle-bar.

I might have considered the Rohloff hub, but that also requires a twist-shift.

So far the only disappointment is that the Alfine comes with a stock 21T sprocket, which is way too low. Its like having 8 different gears, but they're all granny gears. I have smaller (16 and 18 tooth) replacement sprockets, but I have not installed them yet. I'm betting I'll be happier with the gearing once the 16 tooth is installed.

Another lesser disappointment is that the Alfine's index shifter reverses the conventional trigger-shift levers. Typically the thumb-lever shifts down and the index-lever shifts up. The Alfine however shifts up with the thumb and down with the index finger. I suppose I can get used to it, but I don't like the safety implications of mixing up down-shifting with up-shifting.

 

[4950cycle]

So I take it you have gone IGH from derailers now ? In that case you have an option now that you did not have before. If you need long term durability from you rig ie.. you actually use it. Now instead of needing that thin flexy chain and like sprockets that are needed for derailer systems you can go to tougher chain and sprockets. You have fixed chain now (stays in one line) so you can either weld or figure out how to drill and bolt mini bike like sprockets and like chain (number 35 and #40) and also go any size you preffer at that rate. It might be kind of an intense project for a guy that likes to just throw things together with nuts and bolts. But it will be very rewarding. This way everything will last long enough to see how that Shimano 8 speed holds up too. I for one am very interested in the results. I was thinking of that same hub for a reconfiguration of my aluminum Mongoose. Believe it or not I would manage to get a sheave/pulley on that 8 speed though. I'm a belt freak. I like the quiet and longevity of belts and sheaves. BtW, Great reveiw on multigeared systems Jon. And you have confirmed my suspicsions that under actual long term use bike chains and sprockets just won't hold up to motored travel unless low powered (small two stoke maybe). PS Since I'm not used to any shifting system except my Honda CB 125 I'll wait for your reveiw of this 8 speed Alfine and use one myself. This way I will not be used to some other shift patern as you have mentioned Jon.

 

[4950cycle]

Oh, and sorry I'm late but thanks for the weigh in JRock. This means a Buttload when it comes to performance stats ! I wish all the guys were like you and would come clean with that when they are stating speeds and such.

 

[4950cycle]

Oh, And watch out for fake Bad reveiws of products. I have heard some sketchy /somewhat bad reveiws of the Nuvinci. I've called and or emailed one of this sites sponsors that deals in them. He has said he has had not a one of them come back tore up. Hmm.. Makes me wonder how much more BS I've been listening to. Ahh Maybe from compediters in the same market ? Hey, If you know different, fill us in.

 

[jon.karak]

Something else I have not seen much discussion on is Truvativ’s HammerSchmidt internally geared crank set. I have been interested in making the kind of setup where the pedal cadence (human input) is multiplied, while the intermediate chain (shift kit input) remains the same. The problem I am trying to solve is that I can't pedal fast enough to keep up with the engine at speeds above 20MPH. The only time I really pedal is the first ten feet from a standstill. Once in a while I can crank out a few while ascending a very steep hill, but for the most part the bike is all-powered as long as I am in motion.

Basically I'm trying to use the same principal of the IGH at the cranks rather than at the rear wheel. I've never seen a HammerSchmidt in action, so I don't know if its even possible. According to the official website, the sprocket spins 1.6 times faster than the pedal cadence when "overdrive" is engaged. The pictures don't leave me with much hope, but I'd be interested if there is anyone out there that has experience with this crankset.

There are two versions: the "All Mountain" and the "Free Ride." The FR is heavier and more stoutly built to accommodate shorter crank arms.