Indian Tadpole

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fasteddy

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Feb 13, 2009
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Thanks fellas, but this is going to be so close as seen from previous attempts to fit everything in line that that it's going to take more luck than anything else. Using Pat's crank and sprocket adapter and sprocket has made it easier but there is something not right and it is most likely the frame.

Going to have to move the left side chain and seat stay out to clear the sprocket and that may help the alignment. I'll know shortly.

Steve.
 

indian22

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Dec 31, 2014
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Ok Steve I spent some time looking at your Tadpole & saw options to correct. Of course rebuilding the complete rear triangle resulting in a wider frame isn't a bad idea, but I had a similar problem with the Simplex Copper gator & was forced to consider my own set of options to clear both the pedal and motor drive chains. My clearance issue wasn't with the chain and seat stays but the vertical 1" tube rear triangle brace. Solution was cut out the inside half of the tube & weld a flat plate inside the tube for re enforcement. I gained 3/8" of chain clearance on each side of the bike as a result. I also added an idler sprocket to keep the chain located on the drive side. Simple quick solutions to my problem. Another easy gain of 1/8" or more on the drive side is to run a a thinner chain like a 415 if Pat's co axle reduction sprocket runs a 420 chain or wider 1/2" pitch sprocket you can "shave" the wider sprocket to run the narrow chain. Basic stuff these last two suggestions but often over looked.

The complete rear triangle isn't the problem just the section of seat and chain stays that the chain has to clear. Picture a 5 or 6 inch section of tube cut out at just these two locations on the stays and an offset section welded into place...select the location of the chain stay splice well and it also makes a fine spot to mount an idler sprocket for tension and chain retention. Cut & complete one stay at a time & nothing can get out of line. We're all used to bumps or bulges to clear the belt on early sheave drives and as an old cabinet man I know you are able to envision a decorative "applique" (if necessary) to cover up a defect or flaw and call it art...because it is!

Of course the look & feel you're after should dictate your choice of solution.

Just suggestions & maybe will spark a better solution of your own. Ideas really are floating around us if we just close our eyes and open our minds to them...and they're free! Of course I believe in finding solutions not just a "fix" but I'm pretty liberal in my definition for solution.

Rick C.
 

fasteddy

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I can't thank you enough for taking the time to look at the problem Rick. An experienced eye sees so much more. I was feeling to rough to go down and work on it yesterday but I wrote out what you suggested and looked it if with a different view point today.

I sat there and stared creatively for quite a while envisioning all your suggestions after measuring and bending a piece of pipe for splicing into the seat stay which was the problem area that seemed to be the best solution. A simple 3/4" would be as good as a mile and it was.

Then I got to thinking if that little bit would work why not put a spacer on the axle and see what I would get half way up the seat stay where the chain was hitting. Sure enough 5/8" did the trick and the Heavens opened and the Angels sang. Pat mentioned some where in the forum that the chain would run close and it was but run past it it did.
Yet another cheer for Sportsman Flyer and Pats engineering skills.

I think that I will ask Pat about getting a #35 sprocket for the rear of the bike. The Bully clutch uses #35 chain and I may as well carry it all the way through so I only have to make sure that I have repair links for one size of chain. The sprocket can go on the side car build when I get to it. I'll have the complete Sportsman Flyer package that it's built for. I'll have the sprocket carrier made at the machine shop I use to fit what I'm doing.
The tri car is just going to be used for bike and car shows and the back roads of bike camp. It is not legal in Canada if it's on the road. The police around us usually play nice but I'm far to old and tired to poke angry bears in the backside to see who's faster, them or me. Really annoys me that all they have to do now is kick the cane out from under me.

Thank you once again for putting the spurs to the horse on this build.

Steve.
 

fasteddy

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Thank you Rick. There is an old joke from when I first started repairing antique furniture that the old Scot that I worked for told me. He asked me the first day I was there what the difference was between a fix and a repair?
He said about an hour if you know what your doing. A fix is if you shove four books under the sofa to replace the missing leg. A repair is when you make a new leg to put in place of the broken one.

That spacer on the axle is the four books. I think the slight bow in the seat tube is the repair. When I started building the bike I said it would be close as I could make it to the original but I never said it would be an exact copy.
Barring that I'm thinking that a notch cut into the stay as you suggested may work just as well and be easier. I had pulled the stays into line some time ago when nothing lined up and that probably helped the problem.
It was so long ago I'd forgotten about it until I went down today and it wasn't as bad as it had been.

I'd redo the seat stays but the gas tank follow their couture and I'd have to make a new tank. I haven't absolutely ruled that out either.

Steve.
 

indian22

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Dec 31, 2014
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Steve I'd have probably liked your old Scot, as my dear mother was a Stuart & of a frugal nature & a good work ethic.

I'd best add that the tubes on my Simplex are 1" diameter & I had 1/8" X 3/4" flat strap to re enforce the cut out. It's pretty robust. Also that "cut out" was on the vertical tube between what on the Simplex could be called the seat & tube stay. You have eyes on the area in question & can better determine the modification necessary. If it's to be only a slight cut out might be ok but any cut deeper than 1/4 of the diameter probably not a good idea.

As to the slight bow in the stay, it can be a solid repair & attractive at the same time...they are not mutually exclusive terms. As a fabricator I was taught that the non symetrical yet necessary solutions to a design could be either disguised, hidden or boldly featured. I don't care for the look of full fairings on motorcycles that hide what's going on, left side and right the same. I like the fact that an intake and carb look different than the exhaust system & contrast etc. That's why I favor the early, quirky, artistic look of the first generations of motor vehicles.

If you decide on a bow in the stay make it a fine looking one!

You could also weld a section of tube on the outside of the stay & cut out a clearance notch in the original tube as previously discussed. Then blend the addition and repair into the original stay...no bow just a "trim piece".

Lot of cool ways to get oneself out of a jam with metal just cut, weld, add or subtract till it suits you. Building a new triangle and tank seems a bit harsh & more like "penance" than solution...especially since the tank is so cool, but if you decide to build a new tank. I got dibs on this old one! LOL. Rick C.
 

fasteddy

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You would have liked Mr. Macintosh. He sounds like your mom but he wasted absolutely no time informing me that perfection wasn't by chance but a product of skill. He had absolutely no problem placing a well aimed foot just under your tail feathers to get your attention if he though you were wrong. Mrs. Mac on the other hand would yell at him to leave that wee bairn alone. I didn't realize that at 14 I still qualified as a wee bairn.
He would look at me like it was my fault. They didn't have any children so when I happened along I was adopted in a way.

If I go with the curved section in the seat stay it will have a curve that Marilyn Monroe would be proud of.

If I make another set of stays and a tank I'll send you this one and pay the postage.

Steve.
 

indian22

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Steve great offer and it's appreciated greatly in the same spirit as it was offered.

Looked at the photos & you may have already done these things, but if not I'd suggest you try them. Primary drive from clutch to reduction drive should be fine Without hooking up the primary chain. Then mount the secondary chain, if you have one of the cheap nylon chain tensioner's mount it as well. Use same the size chain & sprockets you want to run, not just something you have available. A 35 chain is a heck of a lot wider than a 415 & overkill on a low hp build...420 is about double the rating of the 415 & is what I use on the Simplex Copper Gator.

I can't tell from the photo if you have enough tire clearance on each side...that's a factor as well. Use a spacer on the pedal axle if needed to clear tire & axle spacers on the rear to gain enough room to achieve a straight chain line without rub on the stays or tires. adjust chain tension on both sides using the axle & fine tune with the chain tension idler. Rotate the pedal levers to spin the drive lines. If all is adjust correctly it will be relatively easily to spin & run quietly. Same process I use on each build, if the drive train won't work on a pedal bike it will be a nightmare on a motorized bike.

If you have rub anywhere after doing this then simple notching & plating the inside of the stays is not a viable option, unless you want to leace the spacers in and run an idler sprocket (good idea anyway in my opinion) but you'll be able to gauge accurately how much space you'll need to create...no guessing. Just set everything up like it's going to work fine and decide from there.

Have fun & it's not work! Rick C.
 

indian22

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Steve if you have decent clearance on the tire side the clam shell of course can be adjusted in and if there is a spacer or even a contoured dust shield that sticks out from the bottom bracket bearing a bit farther than is necessary it can be removed & replaced by a thinner one. RC
 

fasteddy

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Fortunately there is good tire clearance on both sides of the tire. I asked Pat about a #35 chain sprocket and he was concerned that it would wobble given the size that sprocket is.

The chain is just hitting the left seat stay and other than that it's all good so far. It's a case once again of all I need if 3/4" clearance and every thing would be fine.

Steve.
 

indian22

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Pat's right a 35 chain is over kill & it will cause more problems than you already have. It's about an 1/8" wider than your sprocket & will wander around on the sprockets and wear them out which will cause the chain to get even closer to the stay. Even the 420 will walk around on a sprocket designed to run a 415 or 415 H. and cause sprocket wear. 3 or 4 hp putting around town on occasion a 415 will work well and running an idler will keep it running true and away from the stay. 3/4" in my book is a big number to "adjust" to but if you can cut that by 2/3 rds. through adjustment and running the proper chain then a slight stay alteration is a good outcome i'd say. I gained 3/4" by notching the tube as described earlier and running an idle and gained about a half inch with each...idler made a big difference & of course I used a smaller chain as well...one that fit my sprockets.

If you have good tire clearance run both motor side secondary sprockets as far to the inside as possible while keeping the chain line straight. Like I posted earlier some of this stuff has to be tried first cause eyeballing it won't cut it.

Beautiful day here and got a lot off stuff done in spite of it. Rick C.
 

fasteddy

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I have #41 chain on the final drive now. I don't believe there is any chance it will break. I'll use #415 on the pedal side. It's there to complete the look and meet any legal needs. The chance of me ever pedaling the bike is so far on the slim side it can't be seen with the naked eye and will be hard to find even with a spy glass.

I decided to start with the bigger tooth count since I'm sure there will be a stream of willing riders and most of my pals are nicknamed Beef or Ox and with the small motor it will need all the help it can get. Then there is myself who's never be call Tiny or Slim.

I'll order an idler. It can't hurt to have a couple on hand in any case.

It will be in the low 80's here this week end. That's hot for our part of the world. We're usually ten degrees cooler during the heat of the summer. I'll have the garage door open while I'm working this weekend.

Steve.
 

indian22

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Dec 31, 2014
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Steve the weather is weird here as well, with temps lower on average by over 10 degrees F. & last year in May was the wettest on record, but with 159 Tornadoes in the state this season less than 60 & it's been raining as well! Wonderful weather for riding between the storms & the worst part of season is behind us now, though 30% of the town blew away in October a few years back. Anything is possible I suppose.

I know you'll work a plan to finish the drive train & I'm just trying to supply snipits of info to check off your list. Gearing low is obviously the correct path to follow for the Tadpole. I've seen K.C. Vales post of a slick 40 mph recumbent he's building, but the Tadpole's not that! lol The larger rear sprocket typically used for gearing down being larger in diameter runs the chain line deeper into the upper and lower stay channel which tapers inward front to rear on most rear factory triangles. So smaller diameter rear sprocket runs farther from the stays. Measure the inside dimension of your stays & see how much you might gain. On my Flyer stays with a 44 t mounted I measured 3 & 9/16" inside separation on the seat stays. Going upward on the stays 1.75" I again measured and it was 5/16" narrower! I didn't measure the chain stay as it narrows even more radically. As I mentioned several posts back there are lots of little things to consider & they interplay while adding up until the sum is quite adequate to ones requirements. All your looking for is a harmonious outcome!

The beauty of the reduction drive is it gives you three other sprockets to work with to gain the desired final drive ratio your seeking. Play with the math & instead of a 56 tooth rear you might get the same mechanical advantage from a 34 tooth final. I'd like to see you avoid any surgery on the stays if possible & a smaller final drive sprocket might help you get there from here; besides the 34 t is cheaper than the big boys! If your using Pat's reduction drive I'd think he'd have access to most any combination you'd require.

Have a great weekend. Rick C.
 

fasteddy

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Feb 13, 2009
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I appreciate the help Rick. I am using my admittedly very limited knowledge about motor bikes and the building of them and just work on the general principals that I have learned or read about. I had no idea there were so many chain types until I got into the tri car.

Never thought about the sprocket wobbling until Pat mentioned it. Using steel sprockets wouldn't help either I'm sure so I'm in for the #41 chain and sprocket. If I get to the Sportsman frame and Indian style sidecar I definitely will take the newly learned chain knowledge and use it. Like keystone frames this project has been a learning curve that at times has been more than I have been capable of but if they don't see you sweat they don't know your in trouble.

The way the tri car is geared now it's 20-1. That may be way too low but if I get 15 to 20 mph top speed with two people on it I will have gotten what I want. I still don't know how it will handle with a passenger in the seat and if it can be geared up I'm all for it. At 30 mph there may be an extreme shortage of willing passengers without them having visited bar for sustenance and moral fortitude first.

The design has the passenger sitting on the axle so the weight load will be directly on the axle and front wheels. I have a feeling that the operator will need to be seated before the passenger gets in since the foot rest is some what further ahead of the axle and it may cause the rear of the bike to lift up but that remains to be seen.

The benefit of the tri car is that in about twenty minutes I can drop the tri car and install a fork, wheel and fender set and have a motorcycle. That should confuse the crowd at a motorcycle meet.

After a lot of thought I don't believe that I would modify this frame. It would be much simpler and at the same time satisfy my inner masochist self to gather up the knowledge learned and earned and build another frame and trade the parts particular to the tri car to it with it's wider seat stays and finish the frame now on the tri car as a motorcycle. Perhaps with a side car based on the seat on the tri car.

I can't tell you how many times I've started making a piece of furniture and had people stop by the shop as I did it only to have them come back a few days later to see how it turned out only to find a totally different style of furniture sitting in it's place.
Like stopping in a friends hot rod shop to admire a pick up being built and coming back to find it's now morphed into a touring car. That sort of different.

I have admired KC's build for a long time and I think the trike is the best yet. A rocket ship that needs rails. Someone mentioned taking a turn at 40 mph and all I could think of was that give how sharp that turn was there wouldn't be a second time for either the trike or the owner. I can see golf cart vs trike races in it's future.

Steve.
 
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moto-klasika

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Hello FD,
I am glad that your projects are going well and couldn't wait to see them buzzing around (video?)...

As I had the same position for passenger (my wife!) over front axle of my HPV quadricycle - I have similar thoughts, especially during ride over bumpy road (quite rare here) or panic braking (better to avoid)...

Good thing is that I am much heavier then she is!

However, as many quadricycles and tricycles from the turn of the cenutries had similar layout - why shouldn't we?

Now, my wife should prefere something as Mochet Velocar... with seating IN vehicle - not ON it! ... and, both of us pedalling! I made a mistake and show her some photos and videos!

We shall see during this summer and the first testing and cruising...
Ciao,
Zoran

 

fasteddy

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Feb 13, 2009
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Hello Zoran, good to hear from you again. The problems are slowly getting resolved and I'm hopeful that the tri car will be running soon.
Spent the afternoon trying to work out a way to connect the throttle cable to the carb without bending the cable so it binds and locks up. Tomorrow afternoon will tell me if it's the right path or not.

I'm happy with the tri car style but I can see were most women would prefer to be inside the vehicle. Looking forward to seeing yours on the road as well. Maybe this is the summer for both of us to realize our dreams.

Steve.