Hi from the UK - INDIAN Board Tracker tribute, my first build

indian22

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Dec 31, 2014
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Various loop frames have been available for quite some time and at various price points. Some marketed to the economy /low power projects others for classic style high power & weight motorcycle use, like those made by Billy Lane(four figure price tag) to mount original vintage v-twins. Others fall somewhere in between. They all have the historic look of the loop frames & provide more room to various mount motors...with license taken here and there. I'll be interested in Pete's evaluation when he has his in hand.

On a very personal note I'd add that value added is quite important to me as is proven quality, service and dealer availability and their overall product knowledge. If I'm to spend months of my time on a build all the fore mentioned attributes are requirements that ensure the finished bike is up to my expectations & worth the time and money invested.

Rick C.
 

PeteMcP

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Jun 27, 2017
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Agreed Rick. Bottom line for me is I'm in the UK, not the US. So Pat's Sportsman Flyer stuff - and that of other makers - is something I can only dream of purchasing after the effects of shipping and import duty costs are taken into consideration. If I was in the US, I'd have beaten a path to Pat's door for my builds right from the git go. The undeniable design, execution and quality of SF speaks for itself.
I might also add, if the build quality of this 26x4 frame I just bought via AliExpress lives up to the standards I've encountered on my earlier purchases such as the repop Schwinn Panther frame/tank and two types of sprung forks I've used on my earlier builds featured in this thread, I'll be a satisfied customer.

In other news, just tracked the progress of "CHARLESTON EXPRESS" with my Kawa Drifter aboard and she's presently on her way from Hamburg, scheduled to dock London Gateway Port tomorrow. This US purchase of mine proved the exception to the rule after my 'best offer' was accepted, saving me a bunch of money on the bike's purchase price which greatly offset against the shipping/import costs. Been interesting following the bike's voyage, calling at Miami, Houston, Virginia Beach, Antwerp, Hamburg and finally London. Haulier will collect the container tomorrow and transfer it to Dartford, after which it'll be hauled up to me in Northumberland via bike courier.
 

indian22

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Completely understood Pete I am so spoiled with ready access to stuff which is quite available and with little noticeable cost increase even direct from China. It's rather taken for granted. I also found the aluminum straight bar Schwinn knockoff was quite well made & was a simple, quick build out that's held up well.

Slow boat worked for you with your Buick so the Drifter makes two good buys once it's safely in hand. Hard or impossible to find items here in the States don't seem so extravagant an expense when found across the pond, if it's something one really fancies!

Rick C.
 

RocketJ

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Jun 20, 2018
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I'm not sure if there is much of an issue Pat can raise about this. Drop loops were common place back in the day and this frame differs slightly from Pat's design. It resembles another frame by a gentleman in NJ that I purchase from directly. I wonder if there's any connection or just another copy cat.


Edit: I stand corrected. I'm not sure if this exact link can be disputed by Pat, but upon further searching at least one seller on Ali is ripping off Pat's designs and his own shop pictures.
 
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PeteMcP

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Received confirmation my loop frame shipped from the Orient yesterday. Listing advised 20-40 days delivery time. Will report back soon as it shows up.

________________

Pretty sure Pat has mentioned and knows about his pirated pics being used to help sell his competitors stuff. Short of word of mouth on forums such as this and other media, how do you stop that kind of thing happening without involving legal types - and the kind of sponduliks inevitably associated with such dealings?
 

RocketJ

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Jun 20, 2018
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Received confirmation my loop frame shipped from the Orient yesterday. Listing advised 20-40 days delivery time. Will report back soon as it shows up.

________________

Pretty sure Pat has mentioned and knows about his pirated pics being used to help sell his competitors stuff. Short of word of mouth on forums such as this and other media, how do you stop that kind of thing happening without involving legal types - and the kind of sponduliks inevitably associated with such dealings?
Sadly you can't, especially when these sites are based on china. It's outside the law's jurisdiction
 

Tom from Rubicon

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Apr 4, 2016
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The alarm I raised is due to conversations Pat and I had.
Knowing Lynne's penchant for piracy. In her words ' Others do it, why can't I?" Ya know I like her because I an drive to her place of business. And we have done barter transactions

When I ordered Pat's reduction drive to complete my Sportsman Flyer 80, he had me promise not to advance piracy, and I won't. Pat paid real money for a suite of Solid Works to prove out the geometry of his designs is a costly investment. Which machine shops acquiring a single sample can reverse engineer. So I hope you who do not use Pat Dolan's products understand that cheating Pat, is just that. One thing not raised and I would like to. Sportsman Flyer engineers their products to standards of safety not offered by knock offs. Experienced builders of investment quality builds know and and respect Sportsman Flyer.
I respect Pete's import duty troubles with the USA. Tariffs and taxes impinging free flow of commerce.
There I feel better.
Tom
 
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Ralph hop

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Nov 14, 2019
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To the subject that Tom brought up. My own personal drop loop frame is markedly different from a Sportsman Flyer, and I'll most likely go on to weld over the tig welds and add gusseting. The Chinese have stolen plenty of U.S. tech but the sportsman frame is of its' own creation, and.. I'm in the process of buying a couple sportsman frames because I fear with these times we're in, this could be the near last production?.
 

RocketJ

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Jun 20, 2018
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To the subject that Tom brought up. My own personal drop loop frame is markedly different from a Sportsman Flyer, and I'll most likely go on to weld over the tig welds and add gusseting. The Chinese have stolen plenty of U.S. tech but the sportsman frame is of its' own creation, and.. I'm in the process of buying a couple sportsman frames because I fear with these times we're in, this could be the near last production?.
I agree. If i had the coin, I would definitely stock up on genuine frames. Pat and the NJ guy make some really good frames. I don't trust the chinese crap.

Edit: i just remembered the NJ guy is called holdwa. Nice guy. He was very focused on making sure my frame arrived on time and in good shape.
 
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PeteMcP

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All valid comments guys. But just to help keep things real - almost every bicycle on sale in the world - including the frames - are Far Eastern-made products. Some are commendably high end, cutting edge products priced accordingly and others - some would say most - are made by the gazillion down to a price to satisfy what the market expects to pay. Can't be doing with the kind of blinkered mindset that thinks everything 'Made in China' is shite. By all means 'Buy American made' if you're lucky enough to be able to. Not all of us can.

In the end it all comes down to economy of scale. Bespoke handmade items such as SF frames, produced in miniscule quantities in the overall scheme of things, are priced according to their scarcity and desirability. In the main, the Chinese set-up for and went after the bulk end of the market and have become world leaders at manufacturing what the market (mainly US driven) wants, priced at what the buyer wants to pay. Chinese manufacturers made such a good job of exhaustively covering all markets they are now scratching for and exploiting ever more 'niche' markets where they are still able to economically churn out far smaller batches of items they wouldn't have been interested in a few years back. Anything to keep the machines and workforce rolling. With the economy the way it is, this is a trend that'll only continue. Nothing's off-limits anymore.
 

indian22

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Dec 31, 2014
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There is one actual quantity manufacturer left in the U.S. Worksman. They also build quality & the price reflects this. The rest of our bikes come from the Orient, built to spec and labeled for foreign markets. Giant in Taiwan is the largest & as is the case with mainland China manufacturers "Top of the line" means best in the world, they also make bikes for mass merchandisers for economy markets. 95% of all bikes sold originate from four mammoth (Chinese/Taiwanese) companies.

Custom built in America means hand made and low volume, outside of Worksman. That's the landscape. I corresponded with Pat yesterday about an order and he shared that he was completely covered up with orders. Now that was music to my ears in light of the gloom and doom I hear constantly. Is my order delayed? Yes it is, but when it arrives it will suit me! One off custom parts take time away from the bread and butter production work, so I'm a little surprised that he's willing to take time to fill this order, but he will.

Chinese quality in pedal bicycles is pretty good even in their cheapest products. The quality issues are really seen when gas motors are added. The weight, vibration and speed often crack both aluminum and steel frames. Poor design & assembly of motor bikes builds just add to the frame woes. 212cc motors on a Kent? Get real for a moment before doing it!

Electric power on really inexpensive bicycles is a viable option but go crazy with high power and there will be issues as well.

Pete I feel you are quite justified as are many others in buying Chinese. I do it most of the time because they are normally the only game in town when it comes to my hobby. When I owned machine shops I built most all my bike components, including frames & forks for motorcycles and motor bikes, but now I've started outsourcing more and more and won't apologize or accept shame for it.

Rick C.
 

MotoMagz

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They are all different then Pats Except the dead company.. Silver State Cycles... He took Pats work and turned it into cheaper quality ...Scott owner of Silver State cycles. Is a nice guy but he did take Pats design. Then everyone started producing droploop frames of all kinds that do not resemble Sportsman at all..like mentioned by op in this thread. But there were others years ago turning Worksman into droploops.
 

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RocketJ

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Jun 20, 2018
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They are all different then Pats Except the dead company.. Silver State Cycles... He took Pats work and turned it into cheaper quality ...Scott owner of Silver State cycles. Is a nice guy but he did take Pats design. Then everyone started producing droploop frames of all kinds that do not resemble Sportsman at all..like mentioned by op in this thread. But there were others years ago turning Worksman into droploops.
At this point there's no need to fuss over this. Drop loops were used by every single manufacturer back in the day. Most people knew who used quality parts similar to people and cars today. We all know Pat does great work and he has full support across the community. If people want to tweak his design and make it cheaper but inferior then so be it.
 

PeteMcP

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Jun 27, 2017
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RJ,
Nah, that's an '03 Kawasaki Drifter 800 I just personally imported into the UK from Florida.
One original owner scoot, showing 2800 miles. Not a mark on it, having spent most of its time in an a/c'd Tampa garage. Lucky for me the timing was right for my cheeky best offer to be accepted by the seller back in May.
Two guys from my local removal company and me had a tough time wrangling it indoors after I removed the handlebars and footboards so it would fit through the five doorways and tight hallways we had to negotiate.
Savings generate virtually negative interest these days, so the Drifter is purely an investment on my part due to the bike's small production run and scarcity. These '40s inspired Indian tribute bikes from Kawasaki have always done it for me. Never tire of looking at them.
 

RocketJ

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Jun 20, 2018
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RJ,
Nah, that's an '03 Kawasaki Drifter 800 I just personally imported into the UK from Florida.
One original owner scoot, showing 2800 miles. Not a mark on it, having spent most of its time in an a/c'd Tampa garage. Lucky for me the timing was right for my cheeky best offer to be accepted by the seller back in May.
Two guys from my local removal company and me had a tough time wrangling it indoors after I removed the handlebars and footboards so it would fit through the five doorways and tight hallways we had to negotiate.
Savings generate virtually negative interest these days, so the Drifter is purely an investment on my part due to the bike's small production run and scarcity. These '40s inspired Indian tribute bikes from Kawasaki have always done it for me. Never tire of looking at them.
they look great. I would love to buy one and convert it to a leaf spring suspension.