GXH50 vs Chinese Clones

[MotorbikeMike]

Hi guys, I have a lil project that I would like to do, and am wondering if anyone has had experiance with the Honda 50 OHC vs the chinese clones that are so readily availble. I have a "Hung Shue" or whatever it is called, and it runs nicely, but am also unsure if it is a "push-rod" engine or OHC.

My JL Hoot Gearbox has (VERY) prematurely quit, and I would like some first-hand experiances with the GX VS the H-S China-contender. I have not yet opened the JL Gearbox, and do have a grube box, tho I think the shaft is a different size???

I do not intend to use either gearbox, but am interested in the engines potential, speed, power, noise, and reliability, tho I expect tha to be the same in all cases.

I am NOT interested in comparing with 2-strokes of any types, as my project requires a 4-stroke to be sucessful.

When the HS/JL combo was working, it seemed to have good accelleration, and seemed to get about 27-30 at WOT in about a block with a 275 lb rider.

I have much experiance with the 2-stroke "China-Fire" type engines, Whizzers, and a little with the H-S, and would sure like to hear from the other owners before leaping out and buying a Honda just to test it.

Most of you know that I'm in Sacramento, is anyone close?

TIA for your help in this, and sorry, no 2-stroke info is needed.


Mike
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[Bikeguy Joe]

Mike, you can tell if it's a push rod, ohv or ohc by looking at it.
Picture of you Feng Shuei engine?

 

[MotorbikeMike]

Hi Joe, yes if I could get out there and pull the valve cover off of the top I could easily tell, but I'm working full time, and handling the bike business, including repair and upgrades on customer bikes, and have not gottten out to begin work on the new project. I did also think that someone may be interested, and that somebody might already be familiar with the little clone,

Mike

 

[HoughMade]

I have the Honda GXH50 on my bike. It is a pushrod overhead valve design. I cannot compare it to the clone as I have never had the clone.

What I can say is this- I have disabled the governor. With a Grubee gearbox and a 48 tooth sprocket- I can exceed 35 mph...but at that speed the engine is way up in revs- not overrevved, but it's working (keep in mind that the JL Hoot and Grubee gearboxes have different ration so the same size sprocket does not mean the same thing with each gearbox). It pull extemely well from about 15 mph up and it cruises really happily at 25-30 mph. I weigh around 220-230 at 6'3".

As for noise, that's hard to quantify- I'd have to listen to the engines side by side. I really love the little Honda.

 

[thatsdax]

Yes.. The Chinese version is sort of a knock off. They look a lot alike, and the principle is the same. Internally they are a lot different. For starters, the crank is different, Bore and stroke is different as well. But a lot of design cues were taken from the Honda version. I sell Hondas, Yamahas, KTM's, KAW, Suzukis, Onans, BMWs, Kohler, Gillette, and more, and Now Titans. The Honda is a great motor. It is not better than the Titan. The Titan is pushrod with overhead valves. These are IC motors and have a very long Life.. Enjoy the ride...

 

[MotorbikeMike]

Hi Guys, thanks for the comments. I still want as much more info as possible. Due to some of the responses here, I have learned a couple of interesting things.

#1 the little clones, though nice (I have one), are rated 1.5 hp

#2 The Honda (more money, tho well made) is rated 2.5!!!!

IMHO an increase of .5 hp is major for what we are doing, wouldn't people here pay good money for a carb, or a pipe that would deliver .5 HP?

I'm excited, a full horse is an amazing bonus! Soooo... this morning I ordered a gx50 from small engine warehouse. I have a grube gearbox from an earlier deal, and I have this little bike (see pic below). I think I have put on a front brake, if not, I surely will.

This little bike did a solid 30mpg, with JL gearbox, and the 1.5 Hua Sheng. I had set it up with the 44, which will not be appropriate for the Grube box? I always pedaled off the start, but when I let people test ride her it seems they NEVER did, tho I had told them to! It did, however, croak VERY early, some sort of a GB failure.

I am not up to date on the mix in the gearbox, for the JL the mix that had worked best was, packed with pale yellow Hi-Temp Disk brake grease (automotive), and then, when she started chattering, I found that if I mixed some SAE 40wt with the DBG, it would licquify into a very nice slurry which would continue to melt down, and continually lube the clutch, without bubbling out of the vented bolt at the rear of the box like the stinky 90/140 Hypoid did.

My goal is NOT to do the Grube box as a final, but to compare the H-S with the JL, to the Honda with the Grube box.

I know about searching, but since this thread is about the 4-stroke, and I'm adding (temp only) the grube, how would you guys suggust to set it up?

I probably have a 50th sprocket around here, but never had a larger one, and I can still make the same mix?

Mike

 

[thatsdax]

the 35cc 4 stroke is rated at 1.5 hp. I am working on getting a carrier version of this ready.. The 50cc Titan is rated at 2.41 hp or 1.8kw depending on Altitude and pressure density. Actual displacement is around 48cc for Titan.. Thanks.. Enjoy the ride..

 

[MotorbikeMike]

Hi Guys, More info on the Honda.

As I cannot seem to find spec pages for the other clones could someone post MFG spec pages for every other 4-stroke 49cc Clone that they can find?

From another website Honda 50

Honda Horizontal OHV Engine — 50cc, GX Series, 5/8in. x 1 1/4in. Shaft, Model# GXH50UQXA

The Honda 50cc GX Series OHV mini commercial-grade engine is designed for the most demanding commercial applications. It has set an industry standard for reliability and durability.

Overhead Valve design offers cooler, fuel-efficient operation and cast iron cylinder sleeve provides longer service life. The GX is reliable, easy starting and quiet running. Meets EPA and CARB emission levels standards. This legendary engine has earned the reputation as the preferred engine for construction equipment.

Designed for high-RPM applications.

Honda 50cc GX OHV air-cooled, 4-stroke, horizontal engine Horizontal Shaft: 5/8in. x 1 1/4in. tapped 1/4-28

Applications: high-RPM Historical rating 2.5 HP CCW Rotation

Fuel Tank Capacity: 1.21-qt. Oil Capacity: .63-qt. 7800 RPM

Recoil Start Transistorized magneto ignition

Approximate Mounting Base Dimensions: 4.4in. x 2.1in.

Flange Mount Bolt Circle: 4.17

PTO Height: 3.35in.

Low Oil Alert™

Semi dry element air cleaner Automatic decompression for easy starting

Heavy-duty ball bearing supported crankshaft

Cast iron cylinder bore

Double walled heavy-duty tank with in tank fuel strainer

Manual throttle and choke

Remote wire throttle and choke conversion possible with additional components

Dimensions: 8.9in.L x 10.8in.W x 13.9in.H

This was all jammed together, I opened it up to be more easily read.

Who can post H-S and others?

Mike

 

[Fosscati]

Here are the specs for the Hua Sheng FGs to compare against the Honda GXH50cc

 

[thatsdax]

The HS and Titan XC are EPA and CARB II 2008 Compliant. Honda rates their motors at 1.8kw and HS are rated at 1.4KW. Both Honda and HS are IC motors. Industrial Commercial. They are manufactured for Commercial Industrial applications and are both very reliable. From my Testing experience over the decades, I can tell you for a Fact that Honda HP ratings are accurate to the T. American Engines such as Kohler and Onan were always under rated with no exceptions. There were times where I would put double the KW load on Onans and Kohler enignes before they would start to load up. Onan and Kohler were and still are the Industry standard for IC usage. Still are. Not Honda , Titan, or HS or any Asian motor was ever considered the standard of the Industry. It was always American Onan with Kohler a close Second. Cryco also produced some super IC motors with big cubes and with a turbo and hydraulic governor produced some huge numbers at very high altitudes and pressures. Honda was always the cheaper and weaker motor of choice. As was Kawasaki. The Asian motors such as Hondas and Kaw ran a high 3600 rpm governed IC usage. Onan and Kohler were 1,800 rpm. I sold a lot of both. The Onan and Kohlers were much more expensive than the Aisan versions if you can call them that. The asian versions were designed to accomplish the same job but with a different engine rpm. . I have not checked the past few years to see if Honda pricing has moved up closer . I can tell you this. It used to be that Honda was good and cheap. Now it seems as though Honda is still good but not cheap anymore. I just bought a piston and ring for my Honda CR250. It set me back almost 200usd. No kidding. A front Rotor for my Honda V65 is over 200usd. Just for a Rotor !!! A Rotor for my Harley is 65usd. What has happened to Honda? I also bought 2 tank bolts for my honda. 2usd a bolt ? what the? I told the Honda guy this must be 400 percent mark up !! At any rate. Out of protest, I may get out of the Honda business. I still have my Honda V65 Sabre with Honda line. I may keep it. I may sell it and buy a BMW K100. I love the wicked power of the Sabre. At any rate.. That is what I know from Decades of engine service, building, testing, engineering, manufacturing, and selling at low and very high altitudes. Man..I am getting old.. lol.. Enjoy the ride..

 

[MotorbikeMike]

Hi Dax, you keep mentioning your little Titan, are you going to be able submit one WITH 5/8 output shaft, for my 50cc 4-stroke bike engine test/comparison?

I'm sure many would be interested in the results.

Mike

 

[Fosscati]

Re: The hunt goes on

#1 the little clones, though nice (I have one), are rated 1.5 hp

#2 The Honda (more money, tho well made) is rated 2.5!!!!

IMHO an increase of .5 hp is major for what we are doing, wouldn't people here pay good money for a carb, or a pipe that would deliver .5 HP?

Mike

Mike, You haven't been reading the posts cos on this thread, either here or on your same one at on another forum you were told that the horse power stats were wrong. The Honda's power peak is 1.6 Kw (about 2.1 brake horse power) at 7000 rpm and the HS peaks at 1.4 Kw at 6800 rpm. That is a difference of 200 watt which is just under 0.25 bhp. The Honda performance specs can be believed as accurate but the HS specs could easily be inaccurate.
The best sprocket size for a frame mount using either motor is probably 50T if you are using an 11T freewheel drive sprocket. Maybe 52T if you have to climb serious hills but 56T is slow and causes the motor to rev too high and vibrate and also uses noticeably more fuel.

 

[MotorbikeMike]

Hi fosscatti, I have been reading, and I somehow think the Honda's specs can be trusted, while others are suspect. I have read the specs over and over, and have also seen a very loose interepretation of specs, especially from the Grube site, where he quoates 2 different HP's on the same page!

The test bike currently has a 44, I do have 48, and 50 availble for my experiment. Ultimately I will not use a sprocket sandwiched on the rear wheel, tho as that is a problematic area, and always has been on these kits.

It is no accident that I am posting on both sites, as I want to reach as many as possible, and some are here, not there, or there and not here.

IF I could get REAL specs, I would change my opinion. Sadly, interent is full of "beliefs" and sometime short on True Facts.

I wish it were not so.

Mike

 

[Fosscati]

The Hs is practically identical to the Honda but I buy Hondas costing twice the price in $Aus for that tiny bit more power. Most people quite sensibly wouldn't bother doing this. The HS is a proven motor - I've found it to be great. So is the Honda. HS is Chinese & the Honda is made in Thailand or Malaysia (not Japan).If you are talking frame mounts then chuck your 44T out cos it is useless - I've tried it. Goes like lightening on the flat but a headwind will stop you dead so the motor chatters. The smaller the sprocket the higher the speed at which the clutch & motor stat fighting each other and chattering. Go with your 50T and keeo a 48T handy. I'm using a 48T on my HS right now & it's bearble but some big hills are off limits. Frame mounted 4 strokes will not pull up very steep hills as well as the 70cc HT even with a 56T but that doesn't matter cos you more than make up for it elsewhere. I've cut some long trip by 50% with the 48T sprocket.
The power difference isn't worth paying more than $80 for unless you are ashamed to be seen with anything Chinese like I am. Now my Tibetan 50cc V-twin 4-stroke bicycle engine which burns petrol with sandalwood incense puts anything Chinese to shame! ................sadly I'm only joking

 

[thatsdax]

Hey mike. not sure what else there is to tell. I mean.. The 48cc Titan will run a bike to 35mph and climb all the hills here where I am and that is 9000 feet or there abouts. I am sure there are other 4 stroke 50cc motors that may be able to out do this.. But.... I am not interested in outdoing this since anything over 30 mph is not legal. I am only interested in provided a solid, efficient motor and parts that is reliable and a pure joy to own. I have it solidly in this Titan style motor. The Titan motor fills the bill perfectly at a cost far lower than anything. Period. It is very Similar to Honda without the oil Alert. Another reason the cost is lower. I am not nor will I request any oil alert for these motors . I have well over 3000 miles and the engine has not burned a drop of oil. The Titan is EPA and CARB Phase II 2008 compliant and Approved.. It is an absolutely wonderful motor and I will run it against any other 50cc 4 stroke motor made. IT is that good. I know a good motor when I run one. And these Titan motors are wonderful !!! I am Taking delivery on 2 Super Titans and I hope to have them soon. They are souped up versions of Titan and will have around 4-5hp. These are factory hot rod motors. I may or may not sell them since I do not want people getting into trouble with this kind of power. But just know they exist and I may have one or two for a few select people. We will see. Just a fun kind of thing. Like a Yenko or something.I already explained to the factory the problem that such a hot motor can cause and why. I think they understand. Maybe not. . My feeling is that I will mount the Super Titan, blast past 50 mph and then park it and say, no way will I sell these. .lol I am sure I can handle that kind of speed..Maybe. On a Masi, Yes.. On a Beach cruiser or Mtn bike? Yikes !!!! Pray for me. As I do have a need for speed. There are spots around here where I can get alone and open up for that kind of speed on a Beach Cruiser? Yikes!!! I am going to do it.. You know I am.. At least once..And I am not going to put it on my Masi...lol.. It may be that the cops will want them on their bikes so they can intercept everyone else on the Regular Titans.. No fair !!! Lets give the cops the regular Titans and we get the supers !!!! lol.. Enjoy the ride...

 

[MotorbikeMike]

HI Fosscati, your info is very helpful. Do you think that the Honda nets you 2-3 mph more than the HS? Apparently you get a bit more hill climbing ability?

I am figuring the HS as a baseline, with the Honda as a more deluxe version. Even .25 hp, IF that was all that was availble, should be easily felt?

I am anxiuos to get back to the garage, and kick off this project at the hands-on level, but, alas, the Beach really did need to come first! There is soo much to do.

Dax, after I read your post, I'm just guessing that you do not have a 5/8th shaft engine to join into my little project?

I have seen clearly that the in-frame system as we know it know, certainly has it's shortcomings. But I do think that the 2-strokes day are numbered, and that number is not a very big one.


Mike

 

[thatsdax]

I do not know the size of the output shaft. I would have to pull the clutch pack to measure. It is tapered . As for your project, I have not been keeping track of your project sorry. But Titan engines are for sale if you want one.

Also.. 2 stroke days are numbered? Not even. All the new 50cc scooters for 2008 have gone back to 2 strokes using oil injection.. Evinrude E-tech and Mercury Optiplex for the past couple of years also have new 2 stroke fuel and oil injection engines that are the best in the business. Also the overhead Valve 2 stroke diesels are also popular. The 2 strokes are simply an engine that makes power on every stroke. This can be done with overhead valves or port valving with exchange ports. A 4 stroke makes power every other stroke. So I have no idea why a 2 stroke would be numbered and a 4 stroke not number. Makes no sense at all. From my studies currently, I see 2 strokes coming on strong. Who knows.. It may be the 4 stroke days that are numbered. The market will dictate what happens. And right now, the market is demanding better 2 and 4 strokes..And the market is getting it !!!! Enjoy the ride..

 

[MotorbikeMike]

HI Dax, well you have posted every time I have, about my 4-stroke comparison, so I can't figure out how you wouldn't know.

But, it's ok, I cannot use a tapered shaft, so it wouldn't matter.

Mike

 

[thatsdax]

Well.. My postulate was that you were wanting to do a comparison, that is the inference. It was and still is unclear to me as to the type of application or comparison type testing. Were you going to use a Hydro comparison dyno test off the PTO ? were you wanting to use the gear box PTO applicable to the Engine being tested to a transfer pump? or were you going to mount the Engine and applicable Gear box PTO to a wheel chair? Bicycle? Go Cart? I guess my inquiry is getting too in depth. Forgive me.. Never mind. I guess I should scroll up and back to see what you have in mind for testing. I do not mean to be a bother, I was just curious. I am done.. Sorry to bother.. Enjoy the ride....

 

[MotorbikeMike]

Hi Dax, I don't do waterpumps, norhave a dyno. The testbed is a specific bike, with a speedo, and ultimately 3 stock pipes to be modified during the test.

The engines will be put on the stock grube gearbox to asses each engines "roadability" abd tested with the various pipes. Then I will modify the pipes and repeat the process till I am satisfied with the results.

Then I will ditch the grube box, and set the engine up in a different fashion.

This is all about motorbikes, nothing else.

Mike