Thanx for the burn??? What do you see on page 21 that has anything to do with a motorized bicycle? Perhaps take your own advice...
Not a low speed vec. No dl required .
Not a low speed vec. No dl required .
Federal Law for Motor Assisted bicycles .
- Thread starter thatsdax
- Start date
if you like to know federal registry states motorized bicycles are not motor vehicles cause they do not have a vin read this link under united states and you might learn something Motorized bicycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Before you get caught up on page 21 eddy, you should read page 19, I quote
Defines a "low-speed vehicle" as any 4-wheeled vehicle
with a maximum speed greater than 20 miles per hour but not greater than 25 miles per hour, that conforms with federal motor vehicle safety standards set forth for that vehicle.
By the definition it provides, most motorized bicycles do not fall under this definition, so the section G you quote has no relevance.
Defines a "low-speed vehicle" as any 4-wheeled vehicle
with a maximum speed greater than 20 miles per hour but not greater than 25 miles per hour, that conforms with federal motor vehicle safety standards set forth for that vehicle.
By the definition it provides, most motorized bicycles do not fall under this definition, so the section G you quote has no relevance.
Having reread that NHTSA document over and over, I am starting to get a headache.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but what I understand is:
A two or three wheel vehicle that has
over 20 mph capability
no VIN
lacks mirrors
lacks turn signal lamps
lacks side marker lamps
and lacks stop lamps
is considered to be NOT a motor vehicle, or motorcycle and is instead considered an "off-road vehicle". So does that mean all motorized bikes that fit this definition can only be used off road or what?!?
Assuming of course that the individual state does not specifically define motorized bicycles like Arizona did?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but what I understand is:
A two or three wheel vehicle that has
over 20 mph capability
no VIN
lacks mirrors
lacks turn signal lamps
lacks side marker lamps
and lacks stop lamps
is considered to be NOT a motor vehicle, or motorcycle and is instead considered an "off-road vehicle". So does that mean all motorized bikes that fit this definition can only be used off road or what?!?
Assuming of course that the individual state does not specifically define motorized bicycles like Arizona did?
Thanks randy you were prob more diplomatic then I would be !
Eddy no slight intended ,but you seem to be drawing a lot of your own conclusions and not reading the matt. Presented?
All of the fed regs are recomendations and guidelines NOT laws. Each state issues there own drivers status and control laws governing use of public roadways within there boundary.
At least here in IL. There is a clear deff. Of what a motorized bicycle is and NO there not only considered "off road " again that is ONLY meantioned in the fed reg. Not in the law.
You claim to be reading these articles ,yet it is clear your just skiming looking for anything that supports your viewpoint...
The idea of this thread is to wade thru all of this stuff and try and come up with something poss. That can later be presented to law makers . Letts try and work tword that goal please.
Eddy no slight intended ,but you seem to be drawing a lot of your own conclusions and not reading the matt. Presented?
All of the fed regs are recomendations and guidelines NOT laws. Each state issues there own drivers status and control laws governing use of public roadways within there boundary.
At least here in IL. There is a clear deff. Of what a motorized bicycle is and NO there not only considered "off road " again that is ONLY meantioned in the fed reg. Not in the law.
You claim to be reading these articles ,yet it is clear your just skiming looking for anything that supports your viewpoint...
The idea of this thread is to wade thru all of this stuff and try and come up with something poss. That can later be presented to law makers . Letts try and work tword that goal please.
And cuz were double posting for some reason ? Did you even read the wiki you sited?it clearly states...
"Under present-day NHTSA rules, the final decision as to whether such federally-defined off-road vehicles may be legally operated on public roads is determined by the laws of the state in which the vehicle is being operated."
"Under present-day NHTSA rules, the final decision as to whether such federally-defined off-road vehicles may be legally operated on public roads is determined by the laws of the state in which the vehicle is being operated."
Be aware too that just because a MAB might be classified as a "Motor Vehicle" does not mean anything other than perhaps not being allowed to ride on paths marked "No Motor Vehicles." It does not automatically mean your bike has to be Registered, that you need to have a MC license, etc. Read your State Laws closely, you might even find- as in Maine- that your particular build is "not classified." In Maine, for example, since Shift Kits power your CHAINRINGS and not your WHEEL then the build does not match the definition of a "Motorized Bicycle." Since it requires "shifting" it is not a "moped" and since it is less than 50ccs it is not a "motorcycle." As such, none of the laws such as speed restriction of <20 apply to MABs with shift kits.
Nothing "revisionist" about it. I am a Municipal Law Enforcement Officer here in Maine and recently had a go-round with a Lieutenant at Maine State Police and the ME Secretary of State's Office (intellectual context, not adversarial).
Motorized Bicycle (MSRA 29-A§101.41): Has a motor attached to a wheel that is rated at no more than 1.5 brake horsepower and has a cylinder capacity capable of propelling the vehicle unassisted at a speed of 25 miles per hour or less on a level road surface.
Well, My bike is 48.8cc (making it NOT a motorcycle), 3HP, is attached to my FRAME and drives the bicycle's chain rings (not the wheel), and is able to sustain 35+ on a flat. Operating my bike does involve shifting (which makes it NOT a moped). According to the ME Secretary of State's office, my bike is an "unclassified" motor vehicle, not a Motorized Bicycle, Moped OR Motorcycle. I need a Driver's license only but no registration, inspection or insurance.
My main point was that, in ANY state, Officers cannot ticket someone for operating a piece of equipment that does not meet the statutory description of the equipment for which they are issuing the ticket... or at least it will not hold in a court. So KNOW your local laws, carry a copy with you, be respectful and you should be just fine.
It IS funny, don't you think?
Yes, hilarious. I didn't shoot the gun because I didn't push the firing pin I just pulled the trigger.
Oh well, to each their own counsel........as well as their day in court.
Happy, your sarcasm shows that you believe the semantics I bring up are absurd- perhaps as absurd as your comparison. What I am bringing to this discussion is information, based on my 16 years experience working in law enforcement in two different states, that it is semantics like these that tips the "burden of proof" away from the prosecution into YOUR favor. What I am sharing is FACT (here in Maine) not a personal opinion and this same distinction in how laws may be poorly worded in YOUR state may help you if you get jammed up by the police. Take it or leave it, Happy, but don't be an antagonist: that does not help anyone.
Everyone is entitled an opinion, one as valuable as the next. Anyone can claim they are anything and do so anonymously on the web. It's up to each reader to discern what's being written, if/how it might apply to them, or not at all. If that's being an antagonist, so be it. I'd rather that things get fully parsed, and expect all should, then taken at face value because someone claims it is so. That motives may be altruistic is all well and good, as long as the advice is sound, doesn't incite people to breach or stretch the law or be influenced to do so because it just may to suit their self-served short term interests but in the end cause more problems than it solves. If one were in fact a working LEO it seems remiss to at not least place the caveat that this may at best be a short term legal dodge and it's really in the best interests of everyone and the sport that either long term compliance be met or get the laws changed.
To me, this sounds far-fetched and I imagine it to be the kind of legal ruse that a judge would scoff at. If I am in a car on a hill exceeding the speed limit but have the motor off and coast, am I still speeding? On another note, it also sounds like the kind of logic that attracts negative attention by lawmakers and can get whole classes of vehicles banished or severely restricted with broad strokes.
As was succinctly stated by someone on another thread and I believe quite accurate:
Gentelmen : you both imo have vaild points . Yes to often the "legality" of some riders is bassed on "creative " interpratation of local laws. And often the advice provided by some is based on there opnion not fact.
The larger issue here in IL. Is misinterprtation of the law we have . If you have been following this and related threads ,you know that a dl is not required to operate an mb.
It's made clear in the inst. To police that that requirement has been removed.
Yet we a number of members who have been stoped and ticketed for riding without a DL and to a man have all lost there court cases !? I have been stoped on a number of occasions and the bike or the lane I was in has never been a factor ,just show me a DL .
I feel the greatest threat to our right to ride is the negative presadence set during these trials. If public defenders and private lawyers wont go against the local p.d. And push the judge to examin the new laws from there perspective , there will eventually enough case history to change statelaws.
The greatest use of a fed law would be in that regard. Give those who are willing to fight for there right to use public roadways, a basic fed guideline for all states to base there rules on.
I dont feel we as a group are represented well at all , this is a huge movement , with riders (by estimate) at over a million nationwide. Groups with FAR fewer members get fed laws changed all the time ,why because the lobby congress to the very end.
We need a national assoc. Of riders who are willing to stand up for there rights ! And with people who are able to contact ,visit, and demonstrate .
If you follow the thread mb's in the news ,you see most of the press we get is totaly negative ,why because thats what sell's . Its up to us to promote the poss. side of our sport. Lobbying for a fed law is a great place to start.
The larger issue here in IL. Is misinterprtation of the law we have . If you have been following this and related threads ,you know that a dl is not required to operate an mb.
It's made clear in the inst. To police that that requirement has been removed.
Yet we a number of members who have been stoped and ticketed for riding without a DL and to a man have all lost there court cases !? I have been stoped on a number of occasions and the bike or the lane I was in has never been a factor ,just show me a DL .
I feel the greatest threat to our right to ride is the negative presadence set during these trials. If public defenders and private lawyers wont go against the local p.d. And push the judge to examin the new laws from there perspective , there will eventually enough case history to change statelaws.
The greatest use of a fed law would be in that regard. Give those who are willing to fight for there right to use public roadways, a basic fed guideline for all states to base there rules on.
I dont feel we as a group are represented well at all , this is a huge movement , with riders (by estimate) at over a million nationwide. Groups with FAR fewer members get fed laws changed all the time ,why because the lobby congress to the very end.
We need a national assoc. Of riders who are willing to stand up for there rights ! And with people who are able to contact ,visit, and demonstrate .
If you follow the thread mb's in the news ,you see most of the press we get is totaly negative ,why because thats what sell's . Its up to us to promote the poss. side of our sport. Lobbying for a fed law is a great place to start.
Thanks Pruss, it IS important to stay on point. My point is that, as an LEO I wanted to not "complicate" things by commuting to my workplace on an "illegal vehicle." I contacted the ME Secretary of State's office to nail down whether I could register my MB as a "Moped" since it is capable of "Moped-like" performance (mopeds are not speed-restricted except by general limit signs). They said they I couldn't because the specs of my bike (shifting) did not agree with what ME law defines as a "Moped." Moreover it did not agree with what defines a MB either, or a MC. A ME State Police LT was brought into the discussion and the upshot was that my vehicle is not "Illegal", it is just "unclassified." So, (comparing apples to apples) if an officer stops me for "MB exceeding 20mph" (in a 45mph zone) and I am a dink to the officer & talk myself into receiving a ticket rather than a friendly warning, in court I could/would argue that state law describes a MB as a different specification of vehicle than what I am driving and I would be correct! ME has not yet addressed the safety implications of NON-friction-drive MBs and thus has not yet enacted ANY legislation regarding them. This is not "creative interpretation;" far-fetched as it may appear to some this is simply how the law works (in MY state) and is consistent with the ME Secretary of State's office's interpretation as well. State law supersedes Federal (always more restrictive) so it is important to know your LOCAL laws... and even more important to 1) not drive like a dink and 2) don't ACT like a dink to the officer who might stop you- the object is to not get the ticket in the first place- officers do have discretion on that. (BTW it is far more likely a legislator, or police officer like I, who cruises THESE threads is SYMPATHETIC to the cause so we should not fear the sharing of our ideas and concerns. Statutes will evolve with or without this forum). So, doubt whether I am in the profession I am in if you want, BE one of those guys who sincerely believes that 99% of what is in here is BS and arbitrarily reject information that might help you, there is nothing wrong with being a supreme skeptic. But then perhaps you should ask yourself WHY you waste your time here then? I am here to learn new things and share what I know. Good luck to all of us!
A police officer comuting to work and helping to educate people on the good side of or sport is just the kind of poss spin we need . I like to tell the story of a friend of mine who uses his bike to visit his chrildren during seperation from his wife. Without basic affordable transportation he would not be able to follow his judges order to see that his kids get on and off the buss each day and make it to work. And he's by no means alone ,yet all you ever see in the press is bad stuff relating to MB missuse. Or fluf about how a guy who is building bikes in his garage but not the poss aspects .
My company moto is "a good idea a century ago , a great idea today" and I really think thats true. Imagine all the cool things that could come from the general populace imbracing mb's rather then trying to ban them because of the actions of just a few.
We all know that drinking or drug use when on an mb is wrong ,driving in the wrong lanes or like a jerk is almost as bad . But they don't exist in any greater number then in the regular american driver...imo . I think the great majority are hobbyest or use an MB for basic commuting.
This is why I have been pushing for a national org. That would have a volentary MB DL and bike inspection. Also It would be great just to have the database of like minded people to contact when a chance to lobby lawmakers presents itself. The more we do for ourselfs the less lawmakers would need to do on our behalf!
My company moto is "a good idea a century ago , a great idea today" and I really think thats true. Imagine all the cool things that could come from the general populace imbracing mb's rather then trying to ban them because of the actions of just a few.
We all know that drinking or drug use when on an mb is wrong ,driving in the wrong lanes or like a jerk is almost as bad . But they don't exist in any greater number then in the regular american driver...imo . I think the great majority are hobbyest or use an MB for basic commuting.
This is why I have been pushing for a national org. That would have a volentary MB DL and bike inspection. Also It would be great just to have the database of like minded people to contact when a chance to lobby lawmakers presents itself. The more we do for ourselfs the less lawmakers would need to do on our behalf!
hi
today i went to saaq office on the southsore in montreal ask if so things are legal
they told me it is legal as long as the motor is under 50cc
next stop police station they told me it is not illegal
and its up to each officer
the guy was nice i must say he went to the back to ask the other officers and about half would say no problem at all as long as you ride by the rules
the other half sad no way
so that is it here in quebec it is legal but not illeagal
today i went to saaq office on the southsore in montreal ask if so things are legal
they told me it is legal as long as the motor is under 50cc
next stop police station they told me it is not illegal
and its up to each officer
the guy was nice i must say he went to the back to ask the other officers and about half would say no problem at all as long as you ride by the rules
the other half sad no way
so that is it here in quebec it is legal but not illeagal
Here is the Federal laws in Canada about motorized bicycles.
(3) Subsection 2(1) of the Regulations is amended by adding the following in alphabetical order:
"power-assisted bicycle" means a vehicle that:
(a) has steering handlebars and is equipped with pedals,
(b) is designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground,
(c ) is capable of being propelled by muscular power,
(d) has an electric motor only, which has the following characteristics, namely:
(i) it has a continuous power output rating, measured at the shaft of the motor, of 500 W or less,
(ii) if it is engaged by the use of muscular power, power assistance immediately ceases when the muscular power ceases,
(iii) if it is engaged by the use of an accelerator controller, power assistance immediately ceases when the brakes are applied, and
(iv) it is incapable of providing further assistance when the bicycle attains a speed of 32 km/h on level ground,
(e) bears a label that is permanently affixed by the manufacturer and appears in a conspicuous location stating, in both official languages, that the vehicle is a power-assisted bicycle as defined in this subsection, and
(f) has one of the following safety features,
(i) an enabling mechanism to turn the electric motor on and off that is separate from the accelerator controller and fitted in such a manner that it is operable by the driver, or
(ii) a mechanism that prevents the motor from being engaged before the bicycle attains a speed of 3 km/h. (bicyclette assistée)
Each province must follow these laws.
Steve.
(3) Subsection 2(1) of the Regulations is amended by adding the following in alphabetical order:
"power-assisted bicycle" means a vehicle that:
(a) has steering handlebars and is equipped with pedals,
(b) is designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground,
(c ) is capable of being propelled by muscular power,
(d) has an electric motor only, which has the following characteristics, namely:
(i) it has a continuous power output rating, measured at the shaft of the motor, of 500 W or less,
(ii) if it is engaged by the use of muscular power, power assistance immediately ceases when the muscular power ceases,
(iii) if it is engaged by the use of an accelerator controller, power assistance immediately ceases when the brakes are applied, and
(iv) it is incapable of providing further assistance when the bicycle attains a speed of 32 km/h on level ground,
(e) bears a label that is permanently affixed by the manufacturer and appears in a conspicuous location stating, in both official languages, that the vehicle is a power-assisted bicycle as defined in this subsection, and
(f) has one of the following safety features,
(i) an enabling mechanism to turn the electric motor on and off that is separate from the accelerator controller and fitted in such a manner that it is operable by the driver, or
(ii) a mechanism that prevents the motor from being engaged before the bicycle attains a speed of 3 km/h. (bicyclette assistée)
Each province must follow these laws.
Steve.
How does state law or city ordinance trip federal? I am on parole in Michigan. I have a suspended license. I have a moped which I got violated and fined for driving in cass county. I have a motorized bike as well. Can anyone help me with some piece of legislation that I can lament so this ***** ass cop stops messing with me? This is all I have. I gotta ride 20 miles to work.