Ethanol killing small engines

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bamabikeguy

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Dad had an Amoco station back in the 70's-80's, we had guys drive from a way over yonder to get Amoco white in their pickup trucks. I knew a small engine retailer who warned me way back when about the dangers of ethanol, especially in 2 cycles.

So my brother says he saw a report, about this specific subject, on CNN.

I searched, but couldn't find the video....maybe THIS is the report he was talking about.

Ethanol hurting mowers, helping local repair shops | TuscaloosaNews.com | The Tuscaloosa News | Tuscaloosa, AL

TUSCALOOSA | If you've been yanking on the starter cord of your lawn mower only to hear it sputter, the problem may start with the fuel you are putting into it.

Mechanics at local small- engine repair shops say ethanol is to blame.

Benjamin Mallisham, owner of Mallisham's Lawn Mower Repair on 13th Avenue East, said he's seen a steady increase in the number of engines damaged by the effects of ethanol.

'About one out of every five or six motors that come in here, that's the problem,' said Mallisham, who has been repairing lawn mowers and other small engines since 1974. 'It's getting worse now, but it got real bad about two years ago.'

Mallisham and Charlie Singley, owner of Singley Small Engine & Equipment on Greensboro Avenue, both said they have seen poorer grades of gasoline since the hurricanes of 2005 devastated the oil refineries along the Gulf Coast.

Couple that with the infusion of ethanol, part of the federal government's mandate to steadily use more biofuels over the next 14 years, and small engines — often called utility engines — are suffering.

'If it's a two-cycle engine with a diaphragm in the carburetor, the parts get stiff,' Singley said.

Gasoline blended with ethanol has become more common because a 2005 federal law requires an increase in the use of renewable biofuels from the 2004 level of about 4 billion gallons a year to 36 billion gallons by 2022.

Proponents of the alternative fuel claim it will help the U.S. become less reliant on foreign oil, provide additional security to the American farmer and be less polluting than fossil fuels.

The problem is that ethanol — a type of alcohol — is corrosive to plastic parts, especially those found in lawn mowers, chain saws, gas-powered weed trimmers and leaf blowers. At his shop, Mallisham displayed a carburetor with a quarter-sized hole that resembled the damage acid can do to certain materials. He said the hole was created by ethanol.

About the only recourse is to buy only as much gasoline as you can use quickly and mix in gasoline stabilizer, which is sold at almost every small engine repair shop.

During the off-season, Singley recommends keeping engines full of stabilizer-treated gasoline and running them occasionally throughout the winter.

But both Mallisham and Singley said that, at some point, the small rubber and plastic pieces within small engines will begin to falter because of the ethanol.

'It just eats them up,' Mallisham said.

Kenneth Midkiff, a professor of mechanical engineering at the University of Alabama, said the introduction of ethanol has been a mixed blessing for utility engines.

'Ethanol is good in a lot of ways,' Midkiff said.

It is better for the environment because engine exhaust contains fewer unburned hydrocarbons — a factor in ground-level ozone. That's particularly important for lawn mower engines because they don't have the pollution controls found on automobiles.

However, 'ethanol has a somewhat corrosive effect on some plastics. It is possible that some parts of a lawn mower could be damaged,' Midkiff said.

Properly mixed, a 10 percent ethanol blend in gasoline should not hurt utility engines or their performance. The problem comes when a gas container sits in a garage for several months or a gas station does not properly maintain its tanks. This can result in ethanol separating from the gasoline, and the problem is worse if water gets mixed in.

Midkiff said he expects that the design of utility engines will improve to overcome the shortcomings of ethanol and reduce pollution.

Tuscaloosa resident Jesse Woods said he's cut grass for a living since the late 1970s. He noticed a decrease in fuel quality with the elimination of lead as an additive, which the U.S. began to phase out in the early 1970s.

Today's gasoline is just weak, Woods said.

'They ain't processing it like they used to,' he said.

Woods installed cut-off switches on the fuel lines of his mowers. He said the switch allows a carburetor to burn up all the gasoline in it once the gas tank runs empty, thereby slowing the corrosive effects of the ethanol.

This is but one unforeseen side effect of the mandated implementation of ethanol, said Jonathan Lewis, a staff attorney and climate specialist for the Clean Air Task Force, an environmental advocacy group based in Massachusetts.

'We need to learn a lot more about biofuels before we start mandating their use in the marketplace. Everything we learn and everything we hear continues to reinforce that point,' Lewis said, noting that he had not heard of the lawn mower effect until contacted by The Tuscaloosa News.

'We're pushing into this blind alley,' Lewis said, 'without any idea about what the long-term consequences may be.'
I only use name brands, Standard 87 or 89 octane in the three stations in neighboring towns and major intersections.
 

bamabikeguy

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Shell seems to be the most constant, most widely available. I have to go check BP again, they seem to have a NEW high-falutin name for some additive one of my customers noticed yesterday.

Went to get a gallon of Standard this morning, so I'm sure about my main sources here at the house.

Noticed Conoco is selling the good stuff in the two bigger towns 30 miles away.
 

Ilikeabikea

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There's a good way to check for alcohol. Take a baby food jar and put small amount of water in it. Take a magic marker and mark where the water level is in the jar. Then add some gas, put on the lid and shake it well. After it sits awhile check and see if the water is still at the mark. If it is no alcohol. If the water level is above the mark then it has alcohol in it..........................
 

bamabikeguy

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interesting.

I don't think I've seen a name brand station around here that doesn't say ethanol is added :(

Bummer.
Another suggestion is to find your local chainsaw dealer, or small engine repairman. Loggers are especially particular about what they put in the Stihls and Husquvarna's.

With folks coming around for demo rides, I use about 2 gallons of 50:1 mix a week. But in the slow times, I never let pre-mixed fuel sit around for longer than 3 weeks, put unused oil/gas in the car and mix up a fresh batch.

I would just guess that rule of thumb would be doubly important when you are mixing 20:1.
 

jasonh

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I'll have to check Shell and Conoco after I'm out of gas. I don't usually fill up my car at those places because they're so expensive. Conoco charges a big premium for premium gas - like 50 cents per gal extra instead of 20 like most places.
 

bamabikeguy

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I'll have to check Shell and Conoco after I'm out of gas. I don't usually fill up my car at those places because they're so expensive. Conoco charges a big premium for premium gas - like 50 cents per gal extra instead of 20 like most places.
I've use the lowest, 87 octane for a long time now, in fact, it was advised I quit burning 91, because the lower octanes were the manufacturers rec...(something technical about the explosion temperature).

About a 10 cent difference for Chevron over Jet Pep here in the southeast.

But note what the news article says about a shutoff valve, so if you have to use ethanol, it all burns off and none sits in the carburater, affecting that diaphram while it sits there overnight.
 

jasonh

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I've use the lowest, 87 octane for a long time now, in fact, it was advised I quit burning 91, because the lower octanes were the manufacturers rec...(something technical about the explosion temperature).
I have to use premium because I have a turbocharged car. The higher octane helps to prevent preignition due to higher cylinder pressure. And yes, 87 is more efficient in a normal low compression engine.
 

bamabikeguy

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Well, I had a bummer of a day checking on the ethanol situation.

Went on a 75 miler today, stopping at Texaco, Phillips, Exxon stations on the way in....apparently there was some June 30 2008 target date, EVERYBODY is switching.

So I went to the Chevron distributor, Howard Oil Co., had a 20 minute talk with the owner, heard a lot of the technical aspects, but no one is happy about this. Chevron is still moving the last of the old "pure" stuff.

But he gave me the low-down on discount brands, how their mixing/blending techniques are primitive and mostly on site, while the majors are doing it at the depots.

The discounts use a "low gas blend", (*something that starts with an "R"), get down to around 84 octane, then raise the octane with the alcohol. But there is nothing precise about the mixing, the top part of a tanker truck might be different than what comes out of the bottom.

And he said the pumps now have a complicated/delicate hydrofilter, where a few tablespoons of water captured in the filter shut the pump down, and there is a $10 fee to clear the filter. This puts pressure on the stations to get the tanks inspected. That is what he has crews running around doing, inspecting tanks and calibrating hydrofilters.

He recommended I go talk to the Stihl dealership, so I went to Greenmasters and asked what the loggers are going to do.

His advise was 1) Use the majors, because the octane is guaranteed.
2) Don't mix big batches, and don't use old mixed gas because the oil/gas seperates. One month would be the absolute maximum, but using it up inside of 2 weeks is better.

He knew of no stablizing additive that really did anything.
 
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jasonh

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bummer.

What about high octane race gas from real gas stations? I'm talking like the 110 octane stuff. Wonder if they have to mix corn in with that...

Your bit about the discount stations...that makes sense....last time I filled up at a Shamrock my car wasn't as powerful and I got crap for mileage - exactly what my car's computer does if you put lower octane in. Nuts.

If I wanted to run my car on corn, I'd go get a diesel and run it on biodiesel. Jerkwad feds. Anything to make a buck, right?
 

bamabikeguy

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Final ethanol inquiry

On the way back to Arab yesterday, I passed a local tree trimming company setting up, so on the return, I stopped to ask about how they handle the situation with the 2 cycle chainsaws.

They said it is all about not letting it sit too long, but if YOU DO mix big batches, there is one type of 2 cycle oil mix (mind goes blank, either Craftsman or Homelite) that has a stablizer. Like me, they only use Chevron.

But that is the key difference, ethanol seperates the mix a little faster than old style pure blends, and 2 weeks is the "man on the street" recommended shelf life, no matter what the scientists claim.
 

bamabikeguy

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It is official, ETHANOL SUX.....

I'm in my very first gallon, and things start going hoinky.

A decrease in power, hiccups.

Second gallon, and it takes three pulls or more to start, when I had it down to two at the most.

Washed the air filter Saturday, then Sunday getting the newspaper, it WOULD NOT CRANK.

Bought a spark plug today, but on a 20 mile run to Arab, that decrease in power was evident.

I'm still running 87 octane, reckon moving to 89 or 91 will help?

I use regular Stihl oil, less confusion breaking in new engines for customers, but guess I do an upgrade in that department too.
 

jasonh

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Yes, ethanol sucks.

If you had your motor perfectly tuned, there is a chance you could now be running slightly lean. Adding ethanol to fuel just makes you get worse gas mileage. how lame is that. Might need a bit of a tune. Or, 91 could possibly help, but that's not guaranteed.
 

Pablo

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I was going to start a new thread on this, but what the heck.

I mixed up a batch of fresh no name regular with ethanol (87 octane), with Amsoil Dominator (racing oil) and pure castor oil a little over a month ago. Nice blend, bike went like a moose seeking love. I went through 2 partial tanks on my bike. I left about 3/8 to 1/2 gallon in a plastic gallon can sitting…….I ran my tank very near dry….so Saturday I filled the tank near full. After a few runs up and down my block demo-ing my bike and such with Ghost0, my bike started to run a little funky - I thought it was the expansion pipe I had just shortened! (Tricky - see separate thread). We rode a bit further and my bike was REALLY running like dog stuff smells. So I lengthened my pipe back up and it ran marginally better, but not much…..let it cool down, check the plug (yeah basics first ;) ) and spanning the electrode gap is a big nasty black stringer.

So after reading this thread I suspected my fuel (and the castor) - I drained the fuel (put it in my car, drove a bunch since, no problems). I made a hearty mix of fuel, Dominator and NO castor. Wound in a brand new properly gapped NGK B6HS. Bike started right up, ran a little rough at first, but as the old fuel left the carb bowl (yes I should have drained it!!) the bike just started to run better and better and better…..problem solved.

Old fuel with ethanol and castor is not something you want in your engine. Up to 10% ethanol gasoline will work with castor and synthetic oil, if you mix and use it on the spot, but please don't store it.
 
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jasonh

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Which really kind of sucks, because who the heck wants to mix fuel a half gal at a time? I personally just want to have some ready so I can fill up and go.

I guess maybe it'd be a good idea to get a 5gal can and just keep gas in it, then mix in a smaller can when the tank needs a fillup?
 

bamabikeguy

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Yes, ethanol sucks.

If you had your motor perfectly tuned, there is a chance you could now be running slightly lean. Adding ethanol to fuel just makes you get worse gas mileage. how lame is that. Might need a bit of a tune. Or, 91 could possibly help, but that's not guaranteed.
I read your reply, jumped on the bike and went straight to see Ralph the Stihl dealer over at Rainbow Crossing.

A) This Tanaka, and some Stihls, have pre-set carbs, no adjustment allowed.

B) Stihl recommends mid-grade 89 major brands
.

so

C) Guess I'll do a Pablo, get some 91, concoct some evil brew so the gallon of 87 magically becomes 89 octane.

or probably better

D) Throw the whole batch and a half into the car and start over.



The research goes on !! Thanks Pablo for the input !
 
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