Cannonballs Abbynormal 3Speed.

[cannonball2]

Thanks for all the positive comments everyone!
Cant wait to get it going, just waiting on parts to finish the bike. This was an engine only and not a kit so am having to piece stuff together.
And truly as RC says the devil is in the details.

LSR, to which side do you need to move the hub? It has a small amount of side to side adjustment but NOT MUCH. You can add/subtract spacers to the driven sprocket to shift the hub around the CGs chain line which is locked in by its mounts. The hubs spoke flange is used to hold the driver sprocket. Shifting the hub moves this chain line. It just depends on the bikes frame/wheel combo how much movement it will tolerate. The MTB wheel I used is dished flat on the pedal side and inward on the engine drive side achieving the clearance for the hub to wheel drive chain. Most of the adjustment would be to the right with very little to the left.

 

[curtisfox]

Now have to go back and read it all,almost missed this..............Curt

 

[LandSpeedRecord]

Sorry, i didn't describe it well. I switched to a 36 tooth and had to take out links and now my pedal side chain is way to loose but not loose enough to take links out. I could probably do a half link in the pedal side and be ok but i need to go much smaller again on the motor side as i add power so I am trying to think of an adjustable solution.

 

[cannonball2]

Run a skate wheel idler on the pedal side lower chain run. This chain is used the least(might not be so true in your case) Is most important to have good adjustability on the engine drive chains, don't want to throw one of them at high speed! Since the pedal chain only travels loaded in one direction on a freewheel bike the slack bottom chain is easily tensioned with an idler. There are manufactured idlers available for converting multispeed bikes to fixies to do this very thing. I have one on a build and it is very picky about alignment. The skate wheel is not, plus its quiet and durable(a plus when used on the engine side). I will be running one on this build for the pedal side.
Mapbike said he makes one, PM him and see what he has. Its a simple thing to make a bracket to mount the idler. Don't worry about spring loading it.

If you look closely at the hubs mounting in the pics you will see the lock collar mountings. These allow you to get the ultimate setting on the initial chain set up by being easily movable, The hubs mount is also slotted for fine adjustments. I set everything up (hub/back wheel) bottomed in their adjustments so I have plenty of adjustment over the chains life.

I want to be sure at this point every one knows you are on you own on the inner driven sprocket. The hub was never intended to be used this way, so there are no ready fit sprockets available, The reason the hubs sprockets are so large is to accommodate the hubs diameter. 23t is the minimum for the inner. The outer driven sprocket is a stock Surley fixie sprocket of 22t. These are easily obtained in many different tooth counts to change the ratios. The back wheel on my build is slightly overdriven(22t driving 23t) This is not really an issue. I just found a deal on the Surley 22T.

 

[LandSpeedRecord]

We used to sell pedal side tensioners called singulators, they are a pretty nice piece that mounts in a derailliur hanger. I don't have a hanger on my bike but could make one or weld one on. I held the kit tensioner in place on the bottom of the pedal side and it would work I just want rid of the heavy low quality piece on the bike. One member on here puts shims between the cases and rear mount on the motor and I am tempted to do that if I end up being able to eliminate a tensioner on both sides with that method of adjustment. If no tensioner doesn't work when I put it back together I will do the skate wheel. I can get a green one and it will look cool ha ha. I'm excited to hear how your 3 speed works out. If not on this bike I think i want to build a complete bike around the idea. I have a twin pocket bike engine build in my head that could be a cetrifagul clutch to 3 speed hub like yours. I think I could build a really capable bike with that set up. Who knows maybe take it to Bonneville the next year and go after the 100cc record again.

 

[cannonball2]

If you hook up the engines in parallel is it still a 50cc(electrical joke)-lol.
The problem with shimming the engine will be upsetting the engines chain tension to accommodate the pedal chain unless you can add/subtract links in/out to make it work-never seems to happen that way.

Stuff to complete the build is due in the first of the week(hopefully). Paid some big$$ for a genuine SA thumb shifter. The bar end shifter seems too awkward. Will be using a double pull brake handle on the right and the clutch and shifter on the left.
I had a new friction thumb shifter but its not indexed like the SA and I don't want to hunt for gears. Im thinking of clutching between shifts like an M/C if I can do both at the same time. Maybe just backing off will do, but the hub is still loaded in reverse flow then(engine braking).
Starting will be done in high(locked 1:1) to ease the load on the planetary gear. Once started, just shift to what ever gear is desired. Im digging the fact that an IG hub will shift sitting still. Just come to a stop and shift from high to low sitting there.

 

[LandSpeedRecord]

That is going to be an awesome set up Cannonball. I know that I am dreaming when I think of ways to eliminate chain tensioners, I will just end up with one on the bottom of the pedal side. I have to deal with the bolt that broke off in the case for the rear motor mount. They actually both broke off flush with the case. One side came right out with an extractor, the other side broke my extractor and is now giving me major problems I am afraid this is going to end up in the machine shop getting welded and drilled, tapped, and heli coiled. Fun Fun.

 

[LandSpeedRecord]

We built this for the Interbike show in Las Vegas. It has a 3 speed fixie hub that Sturmy custom drilled for us. The paint is by Geoff Mcfetridge a pretty famous modern artist and cyclist, it is a reverse scraping, raw carbon sprayed flat white then he scraped the white off to form the art. It was just a cool project with no real purpose, we took 4 bikes that year I think. I stayed and worked the shop so I can't remember for sure. Any way, I would love to put a flat handlebar, stuff a motor in there and a 3 speed hub how you have yours and have a 3 speed, 3 speed, crazy light motorbike. Would it be a 6 speed ha ha?

 

[cannonball2]

Way Cool!! Im wanting to build a carbon frame in a real BAD way. Been watching the prices come down, so maybe one day.

If you wanted to make it a 6speed you would need to use the first 3sp as a jackshaft and
transfer it 3sps to the chain ring/rear wheel in the normal shifter bike fashion. While you could constantly shift both sides as a 6spd it would be easier to use one side(probably the secondary) as the shifting side and the other a range side It would really offer a broad range. Imagine having the primary(engine side) in low that would make the other sides 3spds rock crawling capable, with a midrange, probably the one to stay in(even though its running the planetary) for normal operation and a high range to haul a$$(probably have to shift in to this one at high speed). Great idea, just takes about $300 worth of hubs. If it would work as theorized that's really a bargain.

 

[LandSpeedRecord]

I have been looking at a few carbon track frames to replace mine. I was planning to make simple clam shell sections of aluminum tubing about 4 inches long to epoxy around the carbon and bolt the mounts around that. You can get a decent one for around $500 now. The raw materials are still pretty expensive but the prices have come down a lot.

 

[cannonball2]

I saw really nice used carbon road bike frames on ebay in the $200+ range, have to save my nickels.
Stuff will show up today to get this build finished. Except the dang handle bars! Gonna be sitting til the middle of the week waiting, and the temps are gonna be in the 80s!

This is a bone stock engine build, its more about the hub on this one. I have figured ratios on mild engine rpms(6500) if it will turn more it just gets faster which I wont complain about. Its geared for 32mph@ 6500. Have to wait and see.

 

[LandSpeedRecord]

Wow, sounds like you have riding weather on the way. Carbon frames can be had in all kinds of styles and prices like you said. Also with some research amd practice you can repair or modify them very effectively. They have great MB potential, i would personally stay away from the flexy ones just because adding a motor to a flexy bicycle will just add to any instability or bad handling characteristics that are already there. Your current build is really encouraging me to start another build myself. I need a bike i can just hop on and ride also and something with gears would be a lot nicer and more relaxed for cruising.

 

[bowljoman]

This is so awesome! Generally, the faster the hub turns to achieve any given mph, the less newtons transmitted through it per revolution, and I have abused my shimano setup HARD. The shifting gets smoother and it feels broken in after 1000 miles. Then it shifts like a dream. I get great satisfaction in designing a power train rather than porting my heads to achieve illegal speeds. (not to mention the 'no manual shifting' aspect of the laws... but I just did )

I got the stock motor hitting the 40 mph and I dream of throwing a GPR460 and hitting 60 mph. (200 lb rolling weight with 4.6 hp )

 

[bowljoman]

Another note: After an hour and a half ride non-stop on 25-35 mph average, the transmission is lukewarm. Since the entire transmission hub rotates, there is almost no power loss. The clutch housing is also noticeably cooler than before, since I have a lower gear to start in.

Bikes that dont have to shift do get off the line and up to speed faster than my shifter, but I find my peak torque in 3rd gear when they find their red line and the rpm difference is drastically noticeable as I pass 'em.

 

[bowljoman]

I wonder about the jolt of the bump start, if its worth it to get a pull start, but then I think about those pull starters that are just plastic pawls and figure the S3X must be tougher than those.

 

[cannonball2]

All this info is great to hear!
I have a pull start I bought to use when I was considering running the Shimano backwards. It would have freewheeled when trying to start.
The teardown vid of the S3X showed a large three eared drive that locks the hub to the drive. When in high(third) the sliding clutch has a large face the locks the planetary gears and the loading is carried through the gear case not the gears. I feel it will handle pedal starting ok. Staring in third is a must I believe.
I finished the shift selector yesterday and ran it through the gears while pushing the bike. It was pretty cool watching the chains traveling at different speeds then finally the same speed in lock up. The chain lines are perfect with smooth flow. Should be a nice ride. It may operate better with an auto clutch. Shifting might be easier just by backing off. I may go that route.

 

[bowljoman]

ONe aspect of the roller clutches shimano uses is that during the shift, there is a half revolution of the hub where the gear ratio rolls up to the next gear. Its not a sudden jolt. On the same token though, the shimano wont down shift under load.

Im going to try an iMotion hub soon that has a wider range and supposedly does shift under load. I already have it, but Mcguire bearings has yet to get it from me in order to make a sprocket for the spoke flange.

 

[LandSpeedRecord]

I really wish I had the time and funds to develop the 3 speed you all are using before Bonneville this year. I am pretty sure I could gain top speed and it would certainly be easier getting there. Maybe if I had started on that road from the beginning I would already be at or close to record speeds. I don't really regret the direct drive single speed route for now though because whatever speed I attain it will be cool that I did it with a single speed CG. These may not make sense strength or cost wise but here are a few products that could be fun to try, Especially combining more thn one of them with a motor.

http://www.schlumpf.ch/hp/handbuecher/Montageanleitung.KH.engl.10.1.pdf

http://www.g-boxx.com/e-g-boxx2.html

http://www.rohloff.de/en/products/speedhub/

 

[cannonball2]

Cool stuff LSR!!

Got the bike 99% finished today(yeah right). Stole a set of handlebars from another bike to complete the build. Should nickname this things "cables" its got a bunch of em.
Everything fit and worked well. Had to run the very awkward bar end shifter. Made clutching/shifting difficult. Top handlebar mount will be here tomorrow.
So how does it work? Id say perfectly! It pedal starts no problems. I start in 3rd as the load is carried through the outer planetary carrier and not the gears. As soon as it is started you can down shift to what ever gear you want. It shifts with out clutching just by backing off, but is much better clutched. The overall ratio is a bit low, should have gone to a low 30t rear sprocket instead of the 40t. The spacing on the gearing is good no big gaps. I REALLY like BMX chains so smooth and quiet. One of the nicest things compared to other shifters is there is no chain lash and or freewheel take up. Feels solidly linked to the rear wheel.

Next great thing is the GT5, my first one, its a super smooth engine. I don't think it could run any better as a stock engine, I did clean the ports and match the transfers. This is the $60 ebay auction, engine only. Im super impressed!
Will spend the day tomorrow tweeking a few details and waiting on the new shifter to get here. This has turned out probably better than I expected!

Yeah I know, hold the comments on the p-nut tank.

 

[bowljoman]

CONGRATS! Throw on a 32 tooth or a 22 tooth.

YOU ARE THE CHAMPION! When SA announced the s3x, I knew it would revolutionize motorbikes if it caught on.