Canada My situation; legal questions about Ontario

Discussion in 'Introduce Yourself' started by elemein, Oct 20, 2012.

  1. JonnyR

    JonnyR New Member

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    you are what kind of mileage are you planing per day because you are going to need battery's to match that
     
  2. elemein

    elemein New Member

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    Yeah batteries would be a big part. I can see some parts of this project being expensive; but theres no way in **** it'd be more expensive than insurance + gas + vehicle.

    Either way, I think I'd need high range. Probably in the 100 mile range. That is very high though... I'll figure it out I suppose.
     
  3. JonnyR

    JonnyR New Member

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    100 miles i dont think is going to happen on a Ebike
     
  4. elemein

    elemein New Member

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    Yeah that's true; might need to run multiple batteries or hybrid it or something... I'll figure something out.
     
  5. mew905

    mew905 New Member

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    let me put it this way, unless you're in ontario, if it has pedals, it DOESNT need a license (at least in Saskatchewan, Verified by the police dept. as I've been pulled over a couple times), it falls under bicycle laws which means you cannot ride on the sidewalk, you don't need a helmet (though it's highly recommended... durr), and you need powered lights to ride 30 minutes before dawn and 30 minutes after sundown. those are the laws in Saskatchewan, I can't vouch for other provinces however when I looked up the laws, Ontario is the only place that mentions gas powered bicycles, which DO need to be licensed, you DO need to HAVE a license, and you MUST wear a helmet. The only way around the licensing is to ride an electric bicycle limited to 35kph. If it doesn't have pedals, then depending on the top speed will determine if it's considered a moped/scooter, or a motorcycle, which will also determine the approximate cost of your insurance, a moped/scooter will likely cost you next to nothing though, but motorcycles are expensive because kids get on them and ride like dufuses and get themselves (or others) hurt or killed.
     
  6. JonnyR

    JonnyR New Member

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    enough batterys to do half of that distance is going to be $1200
     
  7. elemein

    elemein New Member

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    Oh wow. That is a bit out of budget... I wonder if there is somewhere I could learn more about this stuff... Maybe a hybrid wouldnt be such a bad idea either...
     
  8. BarelyAWake

    BarelyAWake New Member

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    You're planning on riding a hundred miles a day with just "around town use" as a "college daily driver"? Are you sure? Have you checked/estimated your actual, average daily mileage?

    I could be mistaken, you may have a 50 mile one way commute for all I know lol - but I'm hoping that's a high estimate as honestly, a hundred miles is a bear even on a gasbike. While doable w/o doubt, I've frequently racked up that kinda mileage in a day on my weekend wanderabouts but I gotta tell ya it can leave you whipped - the bike may not care, but you just might, 5-700 miles a week on any bicycle is gonna take a toll on bike, body & soul no matter it's motive method.

    If it turns out you've more like sixty miles a day or less electrics can still be economically viable though, with a bit of planning. For example I've about a thirty mile range with my 48v 1000w hub & just the $550 48V 15AH LiFePO4 Battery Pack - so if it's thirty miles or less to the destination, you can simply plug in & charge while you're at class/work/whatever (I'd opt for the 5A Charger over the included 2A)... with the 48V 20AH LiFePO4 Battery Pack you'd have a "buffer zone" of another 10-15 miles or so... BTW, these mileage estimates are rough, based on worst case "no pedaling", stop n'go & somewhat hilly terrain, obviously any conservation efforts would help extend that range... like pedaling from time to time to help take-offs & hills ;)


    I'm not saying that an electric would be the "best" choice for you... but it does seem your options are somewhat limited & I just wanted to provide some food for thought :)
     
    #28 BarelyAWake, Oct 23, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2012
  9. elemein

    elemein New Member

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    Thanks a bunch. Your reply did make me think about batteries; but here's a possibly common question:

    Besides the problem of space and weight, why cant we just get 4 12 v car batteries, lace them up in series to get 48v, and have over 100 amps?

    Is there a problem with car batteries I'm not seeing? (besides space and weight)
     
  10. JonnyR

    JonnyR New Member

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  11. fasteddy

    fasteddy Well-Known Member

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    If you haven't, take a look at the Endless-Sphere site. If it is powered by electricity they know about it. There are three threads about ebikes, general discussion, technical and out drives which is a separate electric motor that drives through your chainring using double chainrings and a free wheel.
    A lot of the guys are hardcore envelope pushers. There is an electric motorcycle or two that beat up on road rockets on a regular basis but they will help a guy starting out with the most basic information.

    The problem with lead acid car batteries are many. As you said weight and size are the start. They don't hold as much power as a lithium battery that you can hold under your arm. The weight will drag your batteries down more quickly since you have to haul them around and the recharge cycles are about 300 if you don't discharge them too far where a lithium battery can be charged anywhere between 700 and 1500 times even if you draw them lower than a lead acid battery.
    This depends of course on the battery technology that is used.

    You are right. Cheap and electric bike should never used in the same sentence. It's just not likely to happen. Kind of like 16 and cheap insurance.
    Golden Motors, Ping and Emissions-Free/Cell Man handle batteries and are well known in the hobby for being honest and standing behind their products. Remember other than GM they are in China and the shipping is extra.

    You may get more answers if you start posting on the electric threads of the forum. A lot of very knowledgeable people keep an eye on them to see what is happening where they don't look through the whole forum.

    Hope you are up on two wheels soon.

    Steve.
     
  12. silverbear

    silverbear The Boy Who Never Grew Up

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    Just a comment on the hybrid idea. I assume you mean an electric motor and a gasoline engine. You would still have all the issues if it was just gasoline... insurance, etc. There is another kind of "hybrid " power however... how about a nice riding multi speed bike that pedals great and also has electric power. You can pedal assist to whatever degree you want. Now that's hybrid power that extends range and reduces cost.
    SB
     
  13. highoctanebikes

    highoctanebikes New Member

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    i am canadain..from windsor ont.and i'm telling you it is illegal for motorized bikes to be on public roads in ontario..that being said i ride mine everywhere without any probs at all from the cops..my advice to you is to you is ride your MB and do it with a whole lot of RESPECT..throw a headlight and maybe even some turn signals/ brake light on the thing and i think there gonna leave you alone..just remember to stick to all the ebike rules and you gonna be fine..I have 2 MB bikes and 1 evan has baby seat installed (my 16 month old son loves it) and so far no cop probs at all
     
  14. elemein

    elemein New Member

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    Thanks everyone; I guess I'm at a crossroads.

    My ideal setup would be just a gasoline-powered bike with a motorcycle frame; or, in other words, a small-displacement motorcycle. Unfortunately, that's just bending the rules too much for me to do.

    That leaves me with a bit of both worlds; not the best of both, but a bit of both.

    If I want to go gasoline powered, then I guess using a normal bicycle frame seems to be the conventional thing to do. Most people don't seem to have any cop issues.

    If I want to get the motorcycle frame; I'm gonna need to go electric. I mean, atleast it's a little more legal than gas; ebikes are legal after all... Though the different frame is a big difference. Though, this is the most expensive option with the least range.

    There are a few reasons I want the motorcycle frame; one of the biggest reasons is that a motorcycle suspension has in excess of 10" of suspension travel, while lots of bicycles hardly have past 2". Second, carrying capacity on a motorcycle is far better than a bike; not only because of power, but moreso due to more places to mount and put things. Third, the ability to carry a passenger... Pretty obvious how you cant do that on a bicycle really. And fourth; probably the "shallowest" reason-- I just love the aesthetics of a dualsport-- plain and simple.

    Oh, and winter riding is much easier when you have bigger tires. Yes; I said winter. I've biked in the white stuff before and it's actually quite enjoyable... I tried doing a 5km day on a bike in the winter. I felt like a lizard on a rock because of the lethargic pace B)

    Either way, I'm not sure which route I'll go. Undoubtedly, if I go the gas route; I'm bending the 50cc rule. How is an officer going to know the difference between a 49cc and a bigger displacement if the physical size isnt too different? They cant.

    Thanks for your help everyone! As always, I have learned lots!
     
  15. JonnyR

    JonnyR New Member

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    with a 4 stroke its more noticable than a 2 stroke if you go up in size and if you want to ride it as a form of daily transportation you should think about reliability of the 4 stroke engines over the 2 stroke engines these kits its a big difference between the two you may spend more on a 4 stroke kit to start with but it saves in possible down time and parts in the long run you dont need to be waiting for parts when you need to ride to school or work
     
  16. silverbear

    silverbear The Boy Who Never Grew Up

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    Not that it matters for me since I'm in the USA, but I have read in other threads that gas bikes (unless they are manufactured mopeds) are not legal even if under 49cc. What is and is not legal should be pretty easy to clarify. If something is clearly stated as illegal then all it takes is one cop who feels like it to give you a hard time, possibly a very hard time. I have heard of some outrageous fines being assessed.
    Why put yourself in a position where someone can give you a hard time legally if they feel like it? Especially if there is another route you can go that is legal? (ebikes)

    Regarding an electric motorcycle... the heavier it is then the more motor you need to power it. Then you're going to go well over the wattage allowed and draw attention to yourself. If you have a regular pedal bike with gears, relatively small and inconspicuous batteries and a motor that doesn't much look like a motor (I'm picturing the magic pie kit) then you won't draw much attention to yourself and can likely get by with a more powerful motor (meaning more voltage in the batteries).
    No bike or motorcycle can be all things. Choices have to be made having to do with budget, legality, practicality and your actual needs vs wants. One good thing is that you have the time to do research, find out for sure what the laws are and the consequences if you get busted, determine a budget and ask a whole lot of informed questions. By informed, I mean read threads and become familiar with your options... then ask specific questions from sources you trust as being accurate. Good luck.
    SB
     
  17. elemein

    elemein New Member

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    I'd go four stroke. No doubt.

    Actually; nothing home made is legal up here. At all. Period. Whether it is an ebike or a gasbike; so no matter what I choose, I'll be bending the rules atleast a little bit.
     
  18. JonnyR

    JonnyR New Member

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    there is only one or two engines you "may get away with calling a 49cc and its the honda GX100 and the lifan 98cc because they "look" like the HS 49cc with a little effort
     
  19. elemein

    elemein New Member

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    What about that 66cc?

    Either way, 49 cc is already an ample base to start with. A GX100 is very expensive and I dislike flatheads.
     
  20. JonnyR

    JonnyR New Member

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    there are 49cc and 66cc is a 2 stroke kits but the 4 stroke kits are all 49cc from what i have seen
     

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