98cc Villiers on a 1945 Sears Roebuck

[MEASURE TWICE]

Your bikes as well as many others I have seen are quite nice, unlike the looks of my build!

I just never had or took the time to do that kind of detail for period look etc.

As for trouble shooting I had this topic of hot condition restarts posted on my threads and I suspect that it just was not a problem others have had so not that much interest anyway. When I possibly add skis to it then I could have a new thread to lift an eye brow?

 

[curtisfox]

MT if they are to close, when it gets hot you won't get fuel. Expansion will close the gap, i know what the specs say, and you got to at least have what it says. A couple more .0001 will not heart a thing. Just don't go under. Close only counts in horse shoes.

 

[Harold_B]

Ha! Skis would be awesome. My bike looks pretty sitting in a dimly lit garage and not too bad in photos from a distance. The real story is the nasty looking welds hidden under JB Weld and spray paint. I'm happy to be learning new things like wire welding and about old two strokes so I'm super happy with my bike. I can't wait for it to earn some ugly on it from spending some time on the road. Got to get it running first. I think beauty is in the eye of the builder and I'm guessing your build looks great MT. Vintage Briggs are cool and at some point I'll try my hand at one of those too.

 

[MEASURE TWICE]

Thanks for the kind words Harold. There is a covering that I want to finish what I started, to make it an art vehicle for parades as a California Sheeps Head Fish. I just need to be careful as to where grinding and welding would be done when I don't have but a rented apartment. The Winter with the rain paused a while and ground still wet would be outside possible. This as far as the quiet part, welding. There is a garage I have that is a distance from the apartment or maybe a storage unit I use and do the noisy grinding. If I get really good at welding just wire brush or flap disk sand paper.

Curtis, you might not have understood my lingo. I was saying that 0.0015 is basically zero when it is no where in the ball park. Close to Nothing or Zilch, Zero, no space at all. I really could not even do the lapping till I took some off the valve stem to make a gap. Then once lapped I went back and ground the stem to get it into the center of the range at 0.006 inch gap. But I think the trouble with the gap getting smaller is that it then leaves the intake valve open more than just a little of the time during cross over to the compression stroke. Heat then exacerbates it to no gap at all and more loss of pressure that the engine won't restart till cooled down.

http://www.your-lawn-care-basics-coach.com/Lawn-Mower-wont-start-when-hot.html

The thread I was reading as well as others which mentioned valve timing. The interesting thing I though was how it was explained how a defective coil in the magneto goes bad when hot. If a wire breaks I think what was meant by the left over carbon track can continue to conduct across the broken gap, but after heated resistance becomes too high and then no spark at the spark plug.

There was also talk about bowl type carbs and use of heat shield. Maybe that means a stuck float due to expansion and less the idea of vapor lock? I can hope I do not have multiple problems concurrently.

 

[indian22]

One of the things I like about this forum Harold is the ingenuity of the builders. MT building a bike at his apartment & storage shed or Veskt building his V twin in the alley behind his apartment with just hand tools is also impressive. Building in a home garage using hand tools is common & we see awesome results time after time. Dream it and build it no excuses. It's inspired me to build at home and my Harley Peashooter as well as the Schwinn Excelsior Autocycle were built entirely at home using hand tools & it's been fun; though I have a machine shop and welding shop I could build in I'm building my V twin/sidecar at home, though I am machining a few aluminum components that require precise tolerances & having a third party build the motor. Bottom line is that guys are finding ways to fabricate some seriously cool bikes with minimal resources....now that's seriously old school!! Rick C.

 

[Harold_B]

Absolutely agree Rick.

There's an original real-deal Villiers bike for sale on eBay that sure looks pretty. Maybe the next build will look more like this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1937-Other...9255-0%26rvr_id%3D1355441893539&ul_noapp=true

 

[Ludwig II]

The price is somewhat optimistic.

 

[indian22]

Harold that is such a pretty ViIliers moto bike , yet I prefer yours. Rick C.

 

[Harold_B]

Thanks Rick. That is a pretty bike. At some point I'd like to restore an old motorcycle but not right now. Significantly different challenges like sticking to the original parts spec and only the original parts spec. I've done that with a few cars of limited production numbers and it's both fun and limiting (also expensive). I'm always looking but haven't been motivated to take the plunge. My skills are not up to the task of a truly collectible restore so I'd have to farm a lot of the foundational work out. Maybe my little Villiers will fill that need for me or maybe it's a warm up. I didn't see this hobby coming a decade ago so who knows?

New magneto coil, spark plug and condenser have arrived. I'm going to bypass the spring loaded contact for the HT wire to eliminate two potential failure points by soldering a new HT wire directly to the coil. I'll also solder a new spark plug connector on the HT wire after it's been fed through the engine case. So, a new condenser, new coil, new HT wire (hard wired), new spark plug connector, and a new spark plug. Only thing I won't be replacing is the points. Not yet anyway. Now to find some time to get out in the garage....

 

[indian22]

I was unaware of your previous endeavors with classic autos Harold, but the conclusion of "very" fun, $$, time etc. about wraps it up & in the end results in nice transports that most fear to drive at all. Beautiful, expensive collector pieces.I admire them ,but will never build or acquire any transport that I'm reluctant to ride or drive... "Classic Motorcycles" magazine's mantra of "ride 'em don't hide them" rings true.

Solder is our friend. Coils are really quite delicate new or old.
Rick C.

 

[curtisfox]

I think the shoulda's coulda's woulda's will take over into another build, hard to stop at just one.LOL.............Curt

 

[Harold_B]

Ha! This is my shoulda-coulda-woulda build from my last couple go arounds! It never ends.
Really enjoy that magazine Rick and agree completely. I won't have anything that just sits and looks pretty. That's my job and I'm failling miserably!
Good call on the condenser. I squeezed in a few minutes this morning to take things apart so I can use the soldering station in the lab at work (very precise temperature control so as not to damage that coil). The insulation on the wires on the old condenser is very brittle and the was bare wire showing in places. Not to say that's my problem but it can't help in the long run. Good opportunity to really clean things up and get familiar with my electricals.

 

[indian22]

Harold I know you are technically inclined, but for some who are new to magnetos I'd like to point out a couple of things about the coil installation. Before install spend some time polishing the areas on the block where bolt up occurs. Oxidation is a problem on aluminum or iron blocks a good ground connection is a must at the locations where the coil contacts the block. Also use feeler gauge to set the distance of the coil "gap" from the magnet on the flywheel to factory spec or measure prior to removal of the coil. If I lack the exact shop setting or foresight to check the original setting (which might be incorrect anyway) I set at .010" & test for a fat spark at the plug. I've found .015" is about max for a good spark. Not super critical within that setting range on most older engines,but If you require a tighter gap to get just a weak spark then I'd suspect the flywheel magnet itself needs to be re-excited, but that would be after all else proves fruitless in creating a decent spark. The magnet should exert enough pull to hold a good size spanner or screw driver in place while offering substantial resistance to it's removal.

Just some thoughts that might prove useful on a cold, dreary morning in Indian Territory. Rick C.

 

[Harold_B]

It's always a good idea to assume that I don't know details if I haven't listed them if for no other reason than for people dropping in on the thread. As far as adjusting the coil gap on the Villiers, the original engineers designed out the need / ability to adjust the position. The mounting ears are located with countersink screws and when both are aligned so that the coil will go into the bores there is very little slop. Kind of nice really and unexpected for an old engine at least by me. The replacement coil is described as "long" but still comes up a bit short and so is only held by one set screw. It does reach both bores but doesn't extend beyond the set screws.
I did clean everything thoroughly with either acetone or isopropyl alcohol to remove oil and grease as well as oxidation so the ground should be solid. I'm also lucky in that I have access to CAD and a rapid prototype printer so I replicated the insulator nut that the HT wire screws into for the usual spring contact. Since I soldered the HT wire and didn't want to hack up the original nut I printed one that looks right but doesn't have the spring contact.
I'm not sure how I might test the flywheel magnets other than subjectively. Typically magnets will have a steel backer to "focus" the flux in one direction so the magnetic attraction from the outside of the flywheel would be minimal. I haven't tried sticking anything to them from the inside but I'll look into it.
There was more oil in the screws and bore for the magnetto, points, and condenser mounting plate than I expected so my confidence that the seals are good is sort of so-so. Hoping it's just more of the excess un-burned fuel from the attempted starts.

 

[MEASURE TWICE]

That stuff just makes good seasoning of the metal when heated. OK maybe that is for cast iron cookware

If it is not in a visible area, I use that high temp red RTV and goop it to keep dry inside point cover. Also it made a really nice strain relief where I repaired a broken off wire into a coil. I use flexible high temp wire. Not sure why in mfr they did not transition from magnet wire to something that won't become brittle and have you using a soldering iron as not intended. Melting epoxy.

 

[Harold_B]

Have brand name for that hi temp red RTV? I'm familiar with stuff like Plasti-Dip but nothing else red. I did put a thick chunk of rubber between the HT wire and coil connection point and the case held in place with an industrial double back adhesive tape, but potting it with a silicone would be good.

 

[Ludwig II]

This is in the UK, there will be similar, if not the same, in the US.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/mapei-mapeflex-firestop-1200-c-high-temperature-grout-grey-300ml/25153

 

[indian22]

Magnet test at home pretty subjective, true. That's why it ends up as last on my list of electrics to check. Mt's "strain relief" is a very practical addition as well, my thought's are vibration alone will weaken the connection, but that's pure conjecture on my part. Sealing with silicon, RTV etc.is prudent. China girl's that are run without case gasket & or grommet on the magneto will eventually fail if operated in the wet. Rick C.

 

[Harold_B]

Thanks for the link Ludwig. I'm pretty sure there's something similar here but probably a DOW product. I'll just need to check labels for compatibility with gas and oil. I'll also want to be sure there's no acidic cure (smells like vinegar) because the out-gasing will corrode the solder joints and any exposed copper wire and metal.

I agree potting is a good idea Rick. As long as the wires are not nicked and there's a reasonable strain relief the joints should be fine for vibration. No solder wicking up the wire under the insulation either. It's good practice to secure the wire itself though otherwise there's a chance for breakage. Potting the connections will happen once I know everything is working as it should. Reworking potted wires is a pain!

Had it running for a short bit this morning before running out of time (that I shouldn't have been spending in the garage anyway - never too old to be a delinquent I guess). The flywheel has marks that align with marks on the case and the crank according to the repair manuals. The manuals also say there's a mark on the chain drive side that indicates DTC. All of those things were either gone or did not match each other on this engine. Guess that's what happens over time. You never know if it's all original unless you bought it new or maybe if you bought it from the original owner. Not complaining just saying that the cues that I was using were leading me astray. Pretty close to correct now but I'll need more tinkering time to get it right. I'm much more encouraged having it fired up again!

 

[indian22]

I'd say it was time well spent if for no other reason for that bit of encouragement this a.m. A great way to begin the day! Rick C.