98cc Villiers on a 1945 Sears Roebuck

[indian22]

Harold I like the springs. The input to this point is valid as well. I've built many small utility trailers over the years using similar springs so a little hands on insight follows. The manufacturer's load rating generally seems too generous. A two thousand pound rating is the shared load between two springs, 1000 lbs. per spring. Two thousand pounds loaded onto even two springs would pretty much max out both springs while the trailer was parked, in motion things would get interesting.

Effective load carrying capacity of half of one spring stack (cut) is well less than half of an uncut full length spring stack. I'd be surprised if your spring as is & mounted on the bike would be rated at much more than 350 lbs.

350 lbs. to 450 lbs. seems a quite reasonable figure for a light motorized bike & rider. Unless you are quite large or carrying a passenger. Lubrication between the leaves of the stack is recommended as well. The leaf type springs when mounted on bikes have the leverage of both fork & rocker design to work the spring stack so some fork designs would lessen or increase the movement of a given spring under load. Trial & error, but to me it seems you're in the ball park with the spring as is. If it's too stiff shaving the spring stack is the best approach (don't get the springs too hot) & I agree it will have a cosmetic appeal to some as well, though it looks good as is. Pulling one leaf (shortening the stack) while an option, won't look as good and will be too soft...my guess.

Final input a good spring shop can reshape a pack (more or less arch) & re-calibrate the spring rate to your specs. Some expense involved with that one lol. Great looking build & I'm following with interest. I do have a set of these somewhere mounted on an old axle...hmm. Rick C.

 

[MotoMagz]

Hey Bud bike is looking good! Couple questions for ya... Is leaf spring drilled through all 3 leafs and bolted to bottom of fork? Also is that tank from La Flea bay? If those rockers don't work out I have a set that didn't fit my bike that might ? Work. Keep at it..like you said ..Paint is a must before the cold comes .

 

[Harold_B]

Rick - Thanks for the detailed info. I would assume if you decide to make a fork like this it will be awesome! Perhaps I should compile links to fork builds and reference pages on the first page of the thread as well unless such a list already exists. Anybody?

Moto - For the moment I have the long spring clamped to the bottom of the fork with a simple plate and bolts (one on each side). My intention is to make a better clamp that will hold the leaf straight between the forks held on with studs and nuts. Im also planning to clamp the short leafs onto the long leaf with a through hole and stove bolt at one end and a wrap around clamp at the other to allow the leafs to slide. Hope that makes some sense, it's clear as mud in my head. Yup, the tank is a Bay purchase from this guy: http://www.ebay.com/usr/azulbay?_trksid=p2047675.l2559
It seems pretty robust although the cap is nothing to feature in a photo shoot. The welds should clean up nice judging by the start I've made with a large flat file. Squeezing it into my frame was a trick but not horribly so. I like it but it's not exactly what I'd hoped it would be. Thanks for the offer on the rockers. Much appreciated. I'll keep that thought in my hip pocket for a bit just in case.

 

[culvercityclassic]

Hey B nice bike build you got going on, like that jig setup too...I may have to invest in that setup. Feast your eyes on that attached picture

 

[Harold_B]

Feast your eyes on that attached picture

In the words of Schwinn “Gentlemen, today we stop”. I quit! Just kidding. That is beautiful and exactly what is in my head. Looks like I'll need to dim the lights a little further next time I'm going to post photos. If I squint real hard and take off my glasses.... Never mind. Is that one of yours?

The jigs are really handy especially since I don't want to spend a bunch of time working up a design in CAD. I sit at a CAD station doing design and running simulation software 10+ hours a day so I'm enjoying the rough-it-in approach. Some of the stuff I design is down to a few microns and obviously I'm not close to that by a long way here.

 

[indian22]

Harold, Culver City had perfect timing as I was about to post one other option for your spring...shorten the two secondary leaves in the stack to give more action if required. His spring stack shows what that would look like with leaves also reversed (which makes for a sleeker look in my opinion) if you decide to stay with your current configuration with the shorter leaves on top, rounding the tips of the two two shorter leaves is an easy way to give a more finished look to your springs. At any rate the fork he posted is quite elegant...this stuff is what I love about the forum, perhaps the springs will work perfectly & all this help isn't necessary, but perhaps down the road it might help you or others on future builds. People helping people.

Have you checked the trail geometry on your fork set up? Rick C.

 

[Harold_B]

No doubt Rick. I once told a friend that no one makes more fun of me that I do and his response was "or so you'd like to think". Cracked me up. A little self deprecation goes a long way. I had mentioned something about collecting links for leaf spring fork builds on the first page along with the Villiers links if there was interest and if it didn't already exist.

I'm assuming that a bit more grinding and some paint will clean things up on my rockers and adding some curves here and there on the springs will soften the look. I do have a vision so to speak of what I'm trying to build: what if Sears or Indian had built a lightweight model that fell between the L and the O with a (very) small displacement? Say post war, low cost, mass market, existing technologies, limited resources. I think it'd look like a hodgepodge between a Scout or O with a little Villiers and a SA or Albion tranny. I make fun of my ability to make my vision a reality but I would certainly hope no one mistakes my joking around for a lack of appreciation for input and direction.
I had found a site a while ago that showed how to set up trail properly. I'm likely close but wouldn't be willing to put money on it. I'll be the first to find out that is for certain. I'll see if I can find the site again and post the link.

 

[indian22]

Harold Indian did in 1916 build the "feather weight" model K 221 cc Villiers engine ...2 stroke. One year only with 3 speed, but no leaf spring. Rick C.

 

[Harold_B]

Harold Indian did in 1916 build the "feather weight" model K 221 cc Villiers engine ...2 stroke. One year only with 3 speed, but no leaf spring. Rick C.

That's the one I meant. The K. My head is killing me right now and details are escaping me. Thanks for the correction. Built in Canada if I recall correctly. The hodgepodge thought was the leaf from a Scout or O with a fixed rear. I had thought briefly about leafs in the back but decided I want to finish this in my lifetime.

 

[curtisfox]

No leaf but did have some kind of spring front, just had to look it up...........Curt

https://www.google.com/search?q=Ind...=O1fbV_CfC5b6jwPpko-QAQ#imgrc=kUPNYluBxnnA2M:

 

[indian22]

Forgot to add this on trail, good discussion in Lurker's v twin thread (somewhere in the first third or so of the posts) on details of setting up trail with some theory. I read a book on it forty or more years ago, but the title escapes me. It was published by Floyd Clymer though. I thought much of the input given to Lurker valid & he set up the forks accordingly...must have worked! Rick C.

 

[indian22]

That's the one I meant. The K. My head is killing me right now and details are escaping me. Thanks for the correction. Built in Canada if I recall correctly. The hodgepodge thought was the leaf from a Scout or O with a fixed rear. I had thought briefly about leafs in the back but decided I want to finish this in my lifetime.

Lovely little bike. Not well thought of at the time but I feel owners made their own problems with fuel mix and poor 2 stroke operation skills, trashed the motors by riding like a 4 stroke... The model K would have looked killer with a leaf spring up front. Rick C.

 

[culvercityclassic]

I did not make the fork but sure like it and feel it was right to post so you guys could get some details on it. voodoovintage.com makes it and it was narrowed 2in and made ride height adjustable by rkb kustom speed. Its on my list to make one some day.

Another site to look at and I mean look at cuz the prices are crazy: http://www.wwag.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/WebSite

 

[indian22]

Yes Curtis the K had a unique spring fork suspension.

Culver my leaf spring design (idea) would be built into a triple tree and girder fork design. I don't have a bike running one of those. Rick C.

 

[Harold_B]

Thanks for the link CCC. I enjoy looking at what is possible and when time allows I'll dig into that site for sure. I say keep the examples coming if you think they are of benefit to anyone dropping in on the forum. Edit - digging back though my screen shots it was a Velocity fork from Voodoo that I had as an exploded view.
I couldn't help myself so I stepped out into the garage to measure the trail and I'm at about 2". Probably shorter than I'd prefer but at the speeds I'll see it should be fine.

 

[indian22]

2" trail sounds about right Harold even at higher speeds, at town speed "death wobble" isn't going to be an issue even with a bit of negative trail. Many actual flat track racers are set up with zero trail or even negative trail for competition factors unique to that style racing. Rick C.

 

[Harold_B]

Cool. Thanks Rick. Confirmation from a more experienced builder goes a long way. I've been here for a while and have been tinkering with mechanical stuff for many years but this is the first time for many of the things I'm doing on this bike.
Going to take another crack at rebuilding / lacing a rear wheel soon. That's should be interesting. At some point I have to stop reading about it and watching YouTube videos and just try. I'll post no matter the results.

 

[mogollonmonster]

Sorry to break into the discussion with somethin useless, but I must say it.

That's going to be an awesome bike! Second, I am continuously impressed by the quality of information on this sight. The amount of experience, knowledge and technical information here is simply staggering.
Please forgive me for my intrusion, but I simply must give due credit. You are all an invaluable resource, thank you.

 

[indian22]

Sorry to break into the discussion with somethin useless, but I must say it.

Please forgive me for my intrusion, but I simply must give due credit. You are all an invaluable resource, thank you.

Harold I'm jumping in here 'cause I'm passionate about this supposed intrusion. Mogollon you are not intruding but participating & that's a very good thing. Interaction is so important to a successful forum & to each thread and post. Every forum member should be valued and encouraged to dialogue, in a civil manner, regardless of whatever skill sets they possess.

I read posts to learn, as entertainment and for encouragement to build things. I write posts in order to share with others my love of all things on wheels and an opportunity for others to praise or critique my efforts as well. Please sir continue to share your comments & praise they make an Old guy happy!

Rick C.

 

[Harold_B]

Rick - well said and agreed.