Indian Tadpole

fasteddy · Oct 26, 2014

Hi Silverbear,

I'm not sure just how I'm going to start the motor as yet. First thought is to wrap a belt with a handle around the flywheel and pull on it. Now the crank handle idea has sprung up and it would be simple to make a short cup that is trapped by the flywheel nut so it can be turned by a hand crank of some sort. As mentioned the slots that the pin on the end of the crank would fit into have to angled to the left so when the motor starts the crank rides up the slots and is free of the motor as it starts and runs.

If my enthusiasm wanes I'll cheap out and start it with a cordless drill and a socket and hope for the best for myself and any unfortunate onlookers who happen to have the misfortune to be in the way of the now fast moving and errant drill as it hurtles through the air in their general direction.

Steve.

silverbear · Oct 26, 2014

Of course, that explains the difference in the flywheels. Then the magneto and magnet, etc. is underneath the bell on your flywheel, is that right?

No need to send the other flywheel at this time. I have plenty to keep me out of trouble for the time being.

It sounds like you have something in mind for the business end of a hand crank starter. I figured something would light up your circuitry. Can't say that I understand exactly what you're thinking, but there is much precedent with all the tractors and motor cars in those early years giving the problem thought. It would be interesting and educational to see what others came up with and among them find something to suit our situation.

I'm still going to be on the lookout for a breaker bar ratchet adapter to see if that would be adequate for the Villiers engine. Your Jacobsen is more powerful and might give more opportunity to get hurt. Hurt we don't need. I was thinking that if our engines had a compression release valve like on my Hiawatha's Sachs engine then we could turn ours over a few times without compression to get the gas into the carburetor, close off the release and then give a concentrated snap to the handle crank rather than just spinning it around a few times. Someone here on the forum will come up with something clever. I hope. Looking forward to seeing photos of your engine in place...
SB

moto-klasika · Oct 26, 2014

Hello SB,
You are afraid of too powerful engines at your vehicles? Take a look on those monster motorcycles from the turn of the centuries...

P.S.: I like two-stroke engines because of thier simplicity and higher power - but sound is anoying! Have some experience with mopeds and scooters, but the most with my TRABANT "limousine". (term form its trafic licence). Didn't know until now for Jacobsen engine...

moto-klasika · Oct 26, 2014

... and, a few more!

fasteddy · Oct 26, 2014

The big problem with the early motors and the broken and smashed limbs was that you set the spark and gas and if you set the spark to far advanced it would kick back. Our engines shouldn't have that problem though I could stand corrected on that.

Here is what I was talking about. I would have this end on the engine and the crank end would fit into it. If you look at the third photo you will get a better idea of what what I mean.

Steve.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Rare-Vintage...870?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item461cdeac4e

fasteddy · Oct 26, 2014

Here's another one.

http://2.imimg.com/data2/FE/WQ/MY-3222380/starting-crank-dog-nut.jpg

Steve.

silverbear · Oct 26, 2014

First link does not work for me, but the second does. I see that it is also called a "hand crank jaw nut". In the photo for the second link ... one is like a bolt and the other a nut... do they fit together somehow? Can these be purchased new? And would you weld the jaw part to your flywheel nut? It looks a little lethal on it's own for catching a pant leg maybe.
Interesting! I saw a listing for one for a jeep that was a different configuration.

It would be really good if somehow one could alter a nut and make the corresponding part on the hand crank to mate with it in such a way that they would separate when the engine started.
SB

fasteddy · Oct 26, 2014

The first link must have timed out after I posted it. One fits on the crank or you can screw the other one into the end of the crankshaft. Can't find the link again but they were from India and they were $68 each if I remember correctly.

I have an idea how to make one and when I get at it I'll post how I did it if it works and if it doesn't no one will know but me.

Steve.

silverbear · Oct 27, 2014

$68.00 X 2 = Too much money. As for the one you intend to make... either we'll celebrate or just not talk about it until after your wrist has healed.
SB

fasteddy · Oct 27, 2014

No, you just need one. Looked on eBay and they weren't inexpensive there either even if they were used. There won't be any broken wrists, wrenched thumbs or nasty bruising either.
I'm an old buck and I've had to many cars that needed to be cranked to get caught even once.

I learned from the old guys I worked for how it was done at an early age. At times old age is good for something.

Steve.

fasteddy · Oct 27, 2014

A modified socket on a cordless drill. Cheap, easy and not strenuous.

Steve.

Intrepid Wheelwoman · Oct 27, 2014

That motor bicycle is a real beast! I cannot begin to think what half of the mechanical gubbins on it are for.

Thanks for the link to the crankshaft dogs Steve, they look like they could be very useful

silverbear · Oct 27, 2014

Now I'm getting a better idea of how the slip release works. Until I saw this picture I didn't understand how the hand crank fitting worked... what it looked like. Now I get it.

So the next question is how to affix the dog nut to the nut already on the flywheel... weld them together? The next concern for me would be the proximity of one's leg on a two wheeler. Looks like it could easily catch loose clothing.

Maybe Steve is right about a portable drill & socket... it is so not-vintage though.
SB

silverbear · Oct 27, 2014

What if the crank handle had the dog nut on it and the flywheel nut had the pin "ears" sticking out... like a small rod (headless bolt) welded to the end of the flywheel nut? Nevermind... just a brainfart.
SB

Allen_Wrench · Oct 27, 2014

Intrepid Wheelwoman said:
That motor bicycle is a real beast! I cannot begin to think what half of the mechanical gubbins on it are for.

Thanks for the link to the crankshaft dogs Steve, they look like they could be very useful

That bike looks like something H.G. Wells or Jules Verne came up with. "Lord Fennwith showed me his astounding Self-Motive Velocipede which he claimed ran on steam, generated from an hitherto undiscovered fuel source: a metal, which could only be handled with lead-lined gloves, and which once inserted into the concrete-lined cylinder atop the miniature turbine, produced a large volume of steam in an instant. The blinding speed he could achieve was incredible..."

curtisfox · Oct 27, 2014

welded to the end of the flywheel nut? Nevermind... just a brainfart.

I think it would reverse the direction of the notches then you would be cranking backwards.
That is like my Case garden tractor,the turned the motor around and the drive is off the flywheel end and all have a left hand discharge decks. Good is they are still running and still get parts.

Have fun it should work good,may be grind your own nut to work that way.love the brainfarts that how thing get devaloped..........Curt

PS did you know if you hold your farts it causes presure the fallows your spine up to the brain and thats were all the ****ty ideas come from

NEAT TIMES · Oct 27, 2014

I'm thinking the pin or notched nut would not know if they were located in opposite positions and would still function properly. Had to stand on my head to properly ascertain it.

My first car was a 1928 Model A Ford, bought it for $35 when 14. Got lots of practice cranking it as it had a very weak battery. Should not have thumb around crank handle in case it kicks back, hurts like h3ll !! owie

Hope this helps.

Ron

Tinsmith · Oct 27, 2014

Been on the road this past week and just finished scanning this interesting discussion. Very familiar with hand cranking my grandfathers first tractor (a 1935 International f-20). I tore it completely down and rebuilt it in the mid 70's, one of the things I remember of that period. That baby had some compression!! Had to set the spark just so and definitely not wrap the thumb around the crank. Will there be a problem holding the bike still while cranking the motor over?

And yes SB, the machinist is "cringing", but it might be worth a try. It wouldn't be much for a local machinist to trim the blades on a lathe. Not a big deal.

Good discussion fellas!
Dan

silverbear · Oct 27, 2014

Hey Dan,
The bike I want to try this on is the 1934 Elgin with the Villiers engine. It has a drop stand and I hadn't really thought about the issue of stability. One of those times when a third hand would be helpful. Might be that leaning it a bit against a tree or building would be a good idea if an extra person isn't handy. The discussion got started with post #82 on another thread..
http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=30828&page=9
SB

Intrepid Wheelwoman · Oct 27, 2014

Allen_Wrench said:
That bike looks like something H.G. Wells or Jules Verne came up with. "Lord Fennwith showed me his astounding Self-Motive Velocipede which he claimed ran on steam, generated from an hitherto undiscovered fuel source: a metal, which could only be handled with lead-lined gloves, and which once inserted into the concrete-lined cylinder atop the miniature turbine, produced a large volume of steam in an instant. The blinding speed he could achieve was incredible..."

A delightful explanation Allen W

I did wonder if that strange object with the pointy end was a steam flash boiler, but if it is it's been placed in a not entirely comfortable position for the rider. Perhaps the idea was to encourage the rider to greater feats of speed in an effort to get away from the thing.

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