Bike builders that have machine tools/shops

[indian22]

I mounted it once like that and I think you guys are right since the chain will tighten more so against the spring and idler.
Then, looking at it if mounting it like it should might take some fabrication on it to get it right.
Dennis

Yes, Rick I checked the chain tension and it takes more spring tension but then when power is taken off the engine
the bottom of the chain will want to flop around, bad for wear on it and the sprockets plus on alignment of the chain.
Dennis

Yes that's what happens Dennis and it's why I use a spring tensioner (instead of a fixed tensioner) on the bottom to take up that floppy chain on the return side. The spring type mounted on the bottom (chain stay) solves both issues with one tensioner and the type I use is less than $20. Because there is so little pressure placed on the spring tensioner mounted on the bottom it's practically impossible for the tension device, when adequately tightened, to pivot into the spokes.. So the spring type tensioner also takes care of a real safety issue as well. If the spring tensioner doesn't eliminate excess slack on the return side it's because it's spring is too weak to handle the size chain your using, but if that's the case it's a design issue at the factory. I use the motorcycle style tensioner not the ones made for 415 chain, but even these springs aren't very heavy....just enough. Photo of my hybrid shows two uses of the spring tensioner, both on the return side, the same style tensioner mounted in two different ways. First mounted to the motor housing of the CG to tension the motor chain and on the pedal side mounted to the chain stay.

Chain alignment is set by straight line of engine sprocket to wheel sprocket, the tensioner shouldn't be used to correct poor chain line setup by putting side pressure on the chain though it can be used as an idler to control chain sag and side slap.

There is a reason that all multi-speed bikes pedal bikes have the derail. spring tensioner mounted on the return side of the chain and it has to control inches of slack chain, perfectly and has done so without changing position for decades, because It works. for that application which is many times more problematic than controlling our little motor bikes inch or two or even three of our little creations. There are many more reasons I can and have given in past posts for using well designed spring type tensioners , but I'll end here with an observation. Some really great engineers figured this problem out many decades ago and it really works well, but home builders really seem to struggle with the reasons why.

Rick C.

 

[FOG]

FWIW, I put a spring loaded tensioner on my pedal chain and was surprised at how much drag it can create. It's kind of an adjustable sort of device in that there are 8 holes to anchor the spring in, and what I found is it's best to use the hole with the least amount of spring pressure that will still reach the chain.

One hole up is a fairly drastic 45 degree change on the spring anchor and ya couldn't hardly pedal the thing! Major drag. It was all bound up!

I put that back ...

 

[indian22]

Fog that's a good point some tensioners come with "bear trap" springs that can create problems, especially on the pedal chain, which is really light weight chain. I use the coil torsion spring design so the spring is totally concealed. Like on a multi speed pedal bike. So if you have one of these sitting around feel how little tension is used to control the chain and it's about the same as will be required for bicycle chain. Really heavy chain on the motor side like 35 will require more spring pressure to rebound the chain weight, but 415 H chain doesn't require much spring pressure. When you get spring tension right the bike should pedal easier and be much quieter as well. Wear on chain and sprockets is also improved.

Either way I expect folks to try things their own way when it suits them.

Rick C.

 

[EZL]

View attachment 103035

Yes that's what happens Dennis and it's why I use a spring tensioner (instead of a fixed tensioner) on the bottom to take up that floppy chain on the return side. The spring type mounted on the bottom (chain stay) solves both issues with one tensioner and the type I use is less than $20. Because there is so little pressure placed on the spring tensioner mounted on the bottom it's practically impossible for the tension device, when adequately tightened, to pivot into the spokes.. So the spring type tensioner also takes care of a real safety issue as well. If the spring tensioner doesn't eliminate excess slack on the return side it's because it's spring is too weak to handle the size chain your using, but if that's the case it's a design issue at the factory. I use the motorcycle style tensioner not the ones made for 415 chain, but even these springs aren't very heavy....just enough. Photo of my hybrid shows two uses of the spring tensioner, both on the return side, the same style tensioner mounted in two different ways. First mounted to the motor housing of the CG to tension the motor chain and on the pedal side mounted to the chain stay.

Chain alignment is set by straight line of engine sprocket to wheel sprocket, the tensioner shouldn't be used to correct poor chain line setup by putting side pressure on the chain though it can be used as an idler to control chain sag and side slap.

There is a reason that all multi-speed bikes pedal bikes have the derail. spring tensioner mounted on the return side of the chain and it has to control inches of slack chain, perfectly and has done so without changing position for decades, because It works. for that application which is many times more problematic than controlling our little motor bikes inch or two or even three of our little creations. There are many more reasons I can and have given in past posts for using well designed spring type tensioners , but I'll end here with an observation. Some really great engineers figured this problem out many decades ago and it really works well, but home builders really seem to struggle with the reasons why.

Rick C.

Nice setup Rick! I had a fixed tensioner on the bike and wanted to try a spring tensioner and the one I showed might works but
it needs some modifications done on it. I have another brandnew one that is for minibikes or motorcycles and it looks promising
since it mounts near the driven sprocket and is a heavy mount. The weather is just not warm enough to work on the bike
since I don't have heat where it's located. I'm looking at Tig welders and most likely will get one sometime this winter.
Thanks for the input.
Dennis

 

[indian22]

Thanks Dennis. I feel for you guys further North & it looks like this ones gonna' hit hard. We however are at about seasonal average right now and working outside has been pleasant after lunch.

Mounting the tensioner closer to the rear sprocket is good typically and that's where the bicycle factories mount them and that's where I position mine first & it typically works well, but you'll note that I mounted both of the hybrids spring tensioners closer to the front, the motor side tensioner actually mounted to the engines side cover and the pedal side way forward as well. This is because I'm running 2.4" wide tires on wide rims & mounting wide tires usually complicates things, so I'm using the two spring tensioners as both idlers & tensioners to keep the chain from getting into the tires on both the motor and the pedal sides of the bike. To clarify: this puts no side pressure on the chain, that would cause problems, but they support the chain just enough, close to the front of the tire to keep the chain running straight. Getting the chain line straight and clearing both frame and tire sidewalls without a tensioner mounted is always step one then the tensioner is added. The tensioner whether spring of solid mount should never be used to pull the chain away from the tire or push the chain to clear the frame, when you do this your chain line will have a kink in it and that's a problem.

Rick C

 

[EZL]

The biggest problem with the bikes is the clearance for the drive chain plus alignment and bigger tires/rims complicates
things. Some of the fellas who messed with the 212cc engines and the regular CVTs fought aligning things since the
CVTs at the time were made for mini bikes and the CVT for the 212cc kits are different with the driven shaft.

I messed around with another tensioner I bought months ago and never tried it till today. I could get it to work but
since that 32-tooth sprocket is so small I didn't trust the tensioner's swing-arm to clear the bottom fork tube. The thing is
made for motorbikes and looks like it fits a 5/8" axle shaft. I figured out a way to mount it but for safetys-sake won't try
using it until summer time. The unit is built real good I can say it's a a good buy for the price. I didn't want to remount
the 36-tooth sprocket to try to see if it would clear just to try it. I went ahead and put it back in storage and decide on
trying it when the weather is decent. I downloaded a image of it and put a link to it from Ebay. The image shows how
it mounts and it's a little different from the standard bike tensioners plus safer to use as long as a fella has clearance.
Dennis

Ebay Link

 

[indian22]

Dennis axle mount eliminates the possibility of the tensioner twisting into the spokes and is safer.

Rick C.

 

[FOG]

The price of effin' steel is just about stupid these days, but I finally broke down and bought 10' of 2"sq for the legs and got this 3 in 1 tool mounted up.



I really shouldn't complain. Including a can of spray paint and anchors I've only got $50 in it! I already had the rest of the material for the stand. And again with the price of metal, but, these things are retailing at ridiculous prices.

https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-30-3-in-1-Sheet-Metal-Machine/G4011Z

That's a 30" BTW. At 40" mine's bigger so I'll just shut up now. It does weigh 500 lbs and that is a considerable amount of metal.

So far I've sheared some 22ga but only in the middle. I noticed some wear on the blades at the edges when I had it apart so that wasn't surprising. Put some 90's on a piece of 16ga which is beyond the 18ga limit so that made me happy. Just a short piece tho.

The roller mechanism isn't working because it's missing a gear on one of the rollers. Grizzly's got 'em on back order for $21. They'll let me know when they get one and then I'll be ready to roll.

1st project for this new to me tool is a guard for my primary chain. I got some ideas in my head that might work ....

 

[EZL]

Wow, that's quite a setupand the bad thing is on steel the plants have been closing over the years.
Back in the 70s we use to haul steel from 2 steel plants from the Chicago area and one of the oldest
and largest plants (Wisconsin Steel) closed down many years back. There use to be steel fabrication
plants in the area along with Blacksmith businesses now there are none.

You got yourself a good workhorse for working with sheetmetal and thanks for the review!
Dennis

 

[EZL]

Thanks Dennis. I feel for you guys further North & it looks like this ones gonna' hit hard. We however are at about seasonal average right now and working outside has been pleasant after lunch.

Mounting the tensioner closer to the rear sprocket is good typically and that's where the bicycle factories mount them and that's where I position mine first & it typically works well, but you'll note that I mounted both of the hybrids spring tensioners closer to the front, the motor side tensioner actually mounted to the engines side cover and the pedal side way forward as well. This is because I'm running 2.4" wide tires on wide rims & mounting wide tires usually complicates things, so I'm using the two spring tensioners as both idlers & tensioners to keep the chain from getting into the tires on both the motor and the pedal sides of the bike. To clarify: this puts no side pressure on the chain, that would cause problems, but they support the chain just enough, close to the front of the tire to keep the chain running straight. Getting the chain line straight and clearing both frame and tire sidewalls without a tensioner mounted is always step one then the tensioner is added. The tensioner whether spring of solid mount should never be used to pull the chain away from the tire or push the chain to clear the frame, when you do this your chain line will have a kink in it and that's a problem.

Rick C

I just got in a (Japanese Mikuni 22mm carburetor) for the 212cc and have a few other things coming like a new 2.4 L
fuel tank. There are a lot of Chinese knock-offs online for sale and a fella needs to make sure he is getting what he
payed for. Not knocking the Chinese carburetors but a fella needs to get what he pays for. I am changing the engine
plate on the motor with the MBRebel mount that is a longer mounting plate. I am going to keep the original layout
instead of using a mount that uses the seat post for vertical mounting of the engine. I feel there's too much torque
stress on a seat post and don't want to deal with extra reinforcing for it on the bike. Another thing, changing and
adding oil on the engine would present problems since the CVT has one of the plugs covered which would require
removing the CVT to get to the plug or adding oil through the valve cover vent. The vertical mounting of the engine
would be great for draining the oil.

This weather has put a dampener with the work on the bike. The bike and engine is becoming a "blackhole" for
money and once I get it the way I want sometime in the early Summer I will be ordering a TrailMaster MB200-2
mini dirt bike for getting around in the fields and for fishing. As far as reliability, the 212cc bike has been far more
reliable than the 49cc "Ghost Racer" bike as far as bugs and problems with that kit. Most of the parts sent with
that kit a fella can't use and you end up ordering more parts to get it working reliably,

A 79cc kit is probably the way to go on these bikes for the average person and actually, the PhatMoto bike is
probably the best start for someone with little mechanical ability and $$$. I need to sell the 49cc and let someone
else get some use out of it since I won't be using it this Summer. I hope everything is ok with you fellas and I have
to get out of here and get other things done.

Dennis

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

The price of effin' steel is just about stupid these days, but I finally broke down and bought 10' of 2"sq for the legs and got this 3 in 1 tool mounted up.

View attachment 103080

I really shouldn't complain. Including a can of spray paint and anchors I've only got $50 in it! I already had the rest of the material for the stand. And again with the price of metal, but, these things are retailing at ridiculous prices.

https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-30-3-in-1-Sheet-Metal-Machine/G4011Z

That's a 30" BTW. At 40" mine's bigger so I'll just shut up now. It does weigh 500 lbs and that is a considerable amount of metal.

So far I've sheared some 22ga but only in the middle. I noticed some wear on the blades at the edges when I had it apart so that wasn't surprising. Put some 90's on a piece of 16ga which is beyond the 18ga limit so that made me happy. Just a short piece tho.

The roller mechanism isn't working because it's missing a gear on one of the rollers. Grizzly's got 'em on back order for $21. They'll let me know when they get one and then I'll be ready to roll.

1st project for this new to me tool is a guard for my primary chain. I got some ideas in my head that might work ....

FOG, I hope that 3 in 1 works for you. Thirty years ago a factory I worked for had one those and the only functional part was the shear. The brake and roller may work on Reynolds Wrap but not much else in my experience. I hope you have better luck.
Tom

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

Been awhile since I have been on my own thread and glad to see it still has legs'.
Last Wednesday my wife's Hematologist gave her a very favorable assessment the markers he watches of her Myeloma.
I am still trying to firm up the design of the Indian style rear rack.
FOG, please post your lathe work here to flesh out this thread.
Tom

 

[fasteddy]

Great news about you wife's Myeloma.

Steve.

 

[curtisfox]

Yes glad to here that, prayers that she keeps improving......Curt

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

Thanks guys for the kind words and prayers. Next day was not a happy day for Mona as we had a consultation with her Osteopath. The New Years Eve CT scans on his screen showed a collapse of her T4 vertebrae which is 1/3 of what is was but the collapse was symmetrical and no wandering chunks to make mischief. There ten other vertebrae with bone loss but T4 is the Biggy.
Doc tells her eight more weeks in the cage and Mona is not happy. But she has the temperament to let it be, and let it heal.
Tom .

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

Couple days later
Tom

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

On another forum in a thread " Motorcycles that just look good" these photos came in 1/18/20.
Peugeot P50T not original engine bot a miniature Rhone.

Tom
The original was a single cylinder, the frame had a lot of room.

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

Another, 1912 5 cyl. Verdel. Never heard of it before now.

Tom

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

And a Flying Merkel on steroids named Flying Millyard.. The engine is unfamiliar to me. The comments ranged from difficult to needs more springs.
I apologies if any of these photos are redundant.

Tom

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

The above posts are engineering master pieces which I had thought of first. Well not the last, as it looks a bit ungainly but parked in front of a Biker Bar. Use your imagination.
Tom