Old Guys Simplex moto-peddle bike

[indian22]

Yeah Curtis get about a years worth of popcorn on hand 'cause the actual build will take almost as long to construct as the vision of my build took to describe in the previous post,lol, and knowing me some of that will change along the way. The main thing is I now have both a bike and a car in my head & the rest is just details yet to be determined. Part of my enjoyment in the way I build is due to the elements of surprise and change that occur along the way. It's not that I don't plan ahead, but that I continue to use my head while fabricating to refine as well as better define the bike during construction.
Just having fun! Rick C.

 

[curtisfox]

Just having fun!
That is the best part, like me lot of changes has come on mine as i gather parts. I have been doing wheels, motor clutch and things like that till i get the space to do my frame. Just got done doing a skip tooth sprocket for the rear wheel, just to be old school, Mean time set back and watch, builders do it first. LOL

 

[indian22]

Progress Curt & gathering or building small parts is time consuming, but part of the fun. I'm in the process of gathering & waiting for stuff to come in. Small beginning, I received a big box of six wheels yesterday, 3 sets of 17" chrome steel, raised center, DOT approved rims with 36, 10 ga. stainless spokes laced to 1/2" custom hubs. The hubs are super heavy duty intended for high torque electric applications. The rears are setup for single disk rotor & the fronts are dual rotor ready. The sprocket should be in soon, a custom affair designed to bolt first to the 6 bolt disc rotor pattern and then to a custom 3 bolt hub adapter. If it seems a lot of bother, it's really not, but the addition of the disc rotor on the opposite side of the rear wheel will require some out of the box thought...got it covered. Why three sets of wheels? Bike gets two and sidecar one plus a spare for the rack. Extra set for the following build. Rick C.

 

[curtisfox]

Nice wheels, moped size? 17"? Your bike will be well equiped...............Curt

 

[indian22]

Thanks Curt, yes 17" x 1.2" width Moped rim. Quite heavy steel...weigh almost 6 lbs. each.

Rick C.

 

[indian22]

I've some tires coming IRC's 2.25" & 2.50" to begin with. I want to see installed height and width on the 17" x 1.2" rims. Also what if any mounting difficulties with these two sizes when using really heavy duty tubes and strips. If they mount easily enough I'll order a 2.75" and see how it "measures up" & installs. I'm looking for an installed height of no less than 24" on the front or greater than 26" for the rear of the bike, less than 24" would be fine for the side car wheel & spare however.

Rear sprocket setup is being machined & will probably take more than one try to get everything spaced. I'd like the option of running dual rotors & calipers on all four wheels, if required so I'll spend some time tinkering with the prototypes upfront rather than retro fitting if required later. I'll be using no larger than 180 mm mountain bike rotors and calipers for braking & really prefer 160 mm rotors, but we will see.

I'm still planning to use a foot lever to activate the sidecar wheel brakes.

Once I sort out the tires and wheels. I'll size the fork to match. I'm still leaning toward using a girder style, single barrel spring similar to the ones used on the early Royal Enfield and several other early British bikes. I won't be using an extremely wide fork design, but one that will comfortably fit a 2.5" inch tire will be about right....though I plan on using 2.25" at this time.

Then I'll really have some elements in place to visualize the frame dimensions required with the V-twin Predator & the V-twin Yamaha....still trying to keep an open mind on which to go with & how they look in the frame is important to me, as either one will perform quite well. The Yamaha can be trimmed out to look like an older engine easily enough. The Predator looks more period correct, but with a Comet CVT is going to be pretty wide when viewed fore and aft which I really don't like & it's much taller than the Yamaha as well. A 3 D clutch with a 1" bore would be a great help in trimming the overall bulk of the Predator with CVT drive. Of course machining a 3/4" shaft is easy enough with the motor torn down, but would it be strong enough if pressured? Remember this will be in excess of thirty hp when modified.

Plenty of unknowns at this point, but I'll take them as they come. Rick C.

 

[indian22]

Got the tires mounted and brake, sprocket stuff on order. Pretty easy mount of both tires with small levers. I'll order a 2.75" x 17" next. It should mount ok on this wheel width as well. I used the heavy 3 mil tubes and rim strips, which often makes mounting a bit more trouble. I decided 3" width too much on this small bike frame. I'm really wanting a really low and long stance for both the bike and the sidecar so I'm concentrating on the wheels & tires first then I'll do the rear triangle (swing axle) and fork geometry, building toward the middle & adjusting the frame length to fit the engine selected. Keeping the finished height of the bike low is not a real problem but keeping it's length proportionately pleasing is. My Simplex is 53" wheelbase and tracks well, but I'll need more than that to fit either of my V-twins. To long a wheelbase will look strange, so part of my plan is to keep the front down tube pretty close to the tire and quite vertical, while maintaining enough rake for positive trail.

The rear triangle can also be shortened up as well by a couple of inches. I'll not be attempting to get much travel from the rear swing arm, but enough to take the pound out of street cracks. Still just having fun! Rick C.

 

[indian22]

I recently ordered a single spring girder fork, 1" threaded, that looks the part of an Enfield and appears robust as well. It may work as ordered or require substantial changes, but it's entirely possible that it won't suit me at all.

I also got a good start on the swing axle triangle which will be quite compact, sized to fit the 17" wheel & 2.50" tire combination. I've decided to stay away from the wider tires as I'd like to hold the un-sprung weight down, as the bare wheels are 6 lbs. each & with the 2.5" tire & heavy tube totaling 10 lbs. without sprocket and brakes.

The swing arm will pivot from the rear of a "Keystone" style engine mount, similar to the one I built for my HD Pea shooter bike. The mount will serve three main functions, motor mount, primary side car mount & lower swing arm pivot point. I'm only looking for 3.5" to 4" of travel for the rear and with a well sprung saddle I'm expecting a pretty comfortable ride. I'm also planing to use a 10.5" to 12" long mono shock suspension to couple the top of the swing axle to the primary bike frame, not a stump jumper for certain.

If the current Yamaha 250 cc V Star bike specs are correct the weight is 325 lbs. with a 58" wheel base & 27" saddle height mounted with 16" & 18" wheels. I believe my bikes target weight of just under 200 lbs. is quite feasible and adding 75 lbs. for the sidecar means I'm still under the factory bikes weight without a car. Test speeds seems to hover around 85 mph after break in of the factory bike, so I'd say I'll have plenty of power to put put around with an adult passenger in the sidecar rig... with either engine, be it Predator or 5 speed Virago. Dare Devil from Oz reported his Virago 250 cc build to have almost reached a 100 mph piloted by the current owner....light weight does make a significant impact on performance! Rick C.

Rick C.

 

[Harold_B]

Hey Rick, keep those updates coming. Source on the girder fork! Ruff by any chance?

 

[indian22]

Hey Rick, keep those updates coming. Source on the girder fork! Ruff by any chance?

Harold the Ruff fork was on my short list of 1" threaded forks, as were some of the Royal Enfield forks out of India. Lack of specific specs & little or no response to my questions prompted me to go with a Chinese vendor who had only one set of these in stock. I did get some very basic dimensions from him, but obviously the seller was an ebay merchant and not a bike guy or a fabricator. I've seen this same fork, or one very similar, on a recent forum build & liked the vertical single barrel spring look. They appear to be rather heavy tube & don't have tube "pinching" at the pivot points on thin wall steel tube, like the standard Chinese "Schwinn Panther style" single horizontal spring replicas offered everywhere. The ebay listing actually had some decent photos so I'm hopeful the forks will suit my purpose. I'm almost certain that I'll end up modifying them to suit; even if they are really well constructed. Final cost was about $220. so no big deal if they don't work out. I'll use on a lighter bike someday...I really like the look. The Enfields were in the $500. to $600. range and the Ruff I liked was around $500. as well, so quite a difference in price for a gamble. So not knowing if any of these would suit my build, size wise; I opted for taking a lower cost chance on one I know will fit my current build, though may not be robust enough for my V twin. I can always use it on a lighter & less powerful motobike project.

The fork, while important, is less so at this point in the build. The swing axle, wheel, rear brakes and final drive sprocket setup are currently occupying my efforts. I've found a neat little spacer to offset the rear sprocket (27 tooth) enough to gain .75" of chain/tire (2.50) clearance with a 6 hole disc rotor bolt pattern to secure the sprocket to the "disk ready" rear hub with grade 12 x 16mm length fasteners. I'll not trust that connection alone to secure the sprocket but will also secure the sprocket with a special 3 point sprocket hub adapter I'm adapting to fit the unusual hub dimension of 1 & 3/8" machining further complicated by a slight flange hub reinforcement at the outside edge of the hub. I'm planning on using a second Hub adapter on the opposite side of the rear hub to secure a disk rotor adapter plate. This will place the disk rotor on the opposite side of the hub away from the sprocket and chain contamination.

Quite a bit of trouble to go to I know , but in the end it will be all right. I know some will doubt the wisdom of using a bicycle style hub, but this hub was designed for use on high torque & speed electrics. The sealed bearings are high quality Japanese with titanium axles. Rick C.

 

[fasteddy]

I looked at the same forks as well Rick and thought them to be well built. I almost bought them and then thought about the shelves full of parts I have in the garage and started building the electric tri car instead. If time and health allow I'll build the bike I had planned to use them on.

Looking forward to seeing the bike as it's built. It will be another beauty for sure.

Steve.

 

[indian22]

I will be sure to post a critique of the forks on arrival Steve. Harold had asked where I found the forks & I double checked CNOL motor sports, ebay... this is not a vendor recommendation, just the facts.

Lots of parts on my shelves as well Steve. The Xcelsior Autocycle bike was 2/3rds. built from extras I had on hand. & it sure kept the cost down.

I'm actually glad you are currently specializing in the three tri-cars as not much info or examples around about reproduction tri cars and originals are relatively few. Good on you for the superb effort put into these.

With the V twin & sidecar project I'm tackling some buggers up front rather than addressing them down the road. I can't use the swing axle for side car attachment so I'm quite limited in connection points between car and bike. The "Keystone" mount is really quite important for the sidecar to be practical on this bike & for the swing arm connection as well. Rick C.

 

[fasteddy]

CNOL Motor Sports were the people I was looking at Rick. it seems that you have to monitor their site to see when they have the forks in stock. I also considered the Indian style fork they sell and it looks like a spring could be added to it.

I'm enjoying the electric tri car build since it's purely what is in my mind and not following what someone else built and I have to follow.

Steve.

 

[indian22]

Steve I checked their Ebay store and saw the girder fork you mentioned. It appears to be really heavy duty. I'd think it an excellent choice to build a leaf spring fork around, if indeed the tubes are as stout as they look.

I've become a believer in e-bikes, especially Pat's design...which separates his from the yuppy housewife look of most, but I think the e- trikes & e- tri-car (with box or chair) is a natural for carrying large range extending battery packs and the groceries. One of each sounds about right bike has that small footprint that enhances storage and parking, but a 3 wheeler has some great all 'round utility.

Will your electric have a classic theme? I'm actually a fan of the look of many of the 3 wheel builds on this forum category, and have very modern styling with low center of gravity while displaying very impressive design & construction. Rick C.

 

[indian22]

Some progress on the swing arm. I found a really hefty steel rear triangle in my dead bike stash & spent a couple of hours modifying to fit. It's really just a basic shape at the moment, but the dimensions now work. The 2.50" x 17" rear fits with plenty of tire & stay clearance. The chain lines will also work through a good range of jack shaft placement & the bottom shell will house the swing pivot. I'll add some bracing as well after I've nailed down the exact chain line (after the jack shaft is located). I'll fabricate some heavy drop out plates, horizontal/rear axle drop style also.

The little mountain bike spring is just a visual aid it's about 6.5" in length & will be replaced by at least a 10" spring/shock running not quite horizontal but rather at a slight upward angle to it's main frame connection. 3.5" of travel estimated.

Photo shows the disc/sprocket adaptor. Standard disc bolts are far to short. Grade 11 fasteners in at least 16mm length are required. This sprocket is drilled for this adaptor, but will be changed out for larger chain requirement. The modified 3 point hub/sprocket adapters are not yet ready.

I'm quite sure this swing arm came off a really heavy duty 1980's era full suspension mountain bike & was a great scrap pile find. I'd expected to build a jig & scratch build this component, but Not necessary it seems. If I were to change my mind and run a 3" width rear tire then, yes I'll need to build it, but I could just fit a 2.75" in there if it would mount to my wheel.
As I said progress, but really unexpected progress. Rick C.

 

[indian22]

I finally got around to pulling the quick release axles from the rear and discovered the bearings take a 12 mm axle bolt, while the fronts are 10 mm. good news. I've a titanium 12 mm x 165 mm on order for the rear.

I'll be using a cartridge type bottom bracket as the swing arm pivot with a few modifications. Simple, strong,smooth & silent...

I'm hoping the forks are on the wide side of 4" as the front, two rotor hub is wide. Of course I can machine almost a half inch off each side of the hub & make it fit, while still having plenty of thread left to secure the brake rotor. The hubs are very heavy duty.

I'm really surprised I've not encountered more difficult problems to this point, but there's plenty of time for that along the way! Rick C.

 

[Harold_B]

Those are some serious looking wheels and tires there Rick. I like it!

 

[indian22]

I know I've spent some serious time getting that rear wheel to this point & haven't got my sprocket to hub connection actualized. I screwed up on the first 3 point adapter which may have been good luck on my part 'cause I've come up with and an even more secure way to hold the sprocket to hub; still using a 3 point hub adapter. I'll post photos but basically I'll drill and tap 6 holes to match up to the disc rotor pattern & use extra long fasteners, going through the hub and into the 3 point adapter. I can then use much larger diameter fasteners to hold the sprocket in place. I'll still use the 3 point connect as well. I've no doubt these connections will secure the rear drive.

When that's completed I'll still face securing the brake rotor on the clean side of the wheel with another 3 point hub adapter. These adapters are only 7/8" thick & will mount back to back and are also drilled and tapped in two spots so these two adapters are also joined by fasteners. Probably a pain to install,but guaranteed not to slip into the spokes under power or braking! A caliper adapter will attach to the 3 point. Spacing for correct caliper to rotor match up will also be a challenge,but when all is done I'll have located chain the brake far away from chain grime.

Normally I'd leave this tedious & time consuming stuff to the end of a build, but this time I'll complete the moving parts first, including the forks and then tackle the static elements of frame and engine. The side car element will fall into place during the main frame fabrication & engine will come last last.

The dual rotor hubs on the front wheel are wide, 4.75" so the fork I've ordered will need to be widened I'm certain, but it appears the forks design lends itself to adjustment for width if necessary. The hubs can accurately be termed bicycle style, but they are different than any I've ever encountered & really heavy duty. Lots of stuff to do. Rick C.

 

[fasteddy]

The electric will have a classic look Rick to fit in with the other Monark and the sidecar. If I ever get caught up before time catches up with me I would love to do an ultra modern trike build. Low, sculptured, long springer front end and with fat tires and rims just to see if I can do it. Lots of custom touches and a large electric motor with a high voltage battery just to confuse the onlookers.

Steve.

 

[indian22]

Steve I'm glad to hear you're staying classic with this build as well, I'm with you on the big rollers & wide, low sculpted E trikes, recliner style with big go cart speed and low center of gravity. Of course Old guys would need some assistance getting in & out; once in place yahooo! Rick C.