Old Guys Simplex moto-peddle bike

[indian22]

Steve I'll take some time to decide on a frame. Though the Simplex duplex tube shape is a definite as it obviously is not just stronger than a single tube, but also offers a wider & more stable mounting platform as well. The strength of the design extends the length of the frame with seat and chain stays connections eliminated at the seat tube ( no saddle tube in the Simplex design) the frame is double and continuous from the head of the bike to the axle drops, same size tube and no welded or brazed connections along the way to weaken the tube.

The existing Copper Gator frame was way overbuilt. I've no doubt that the frame would easily support a 300 lb. rider and a 200 lb./ 60 hp motor safely. It was initially built with the addition of a sidecar in mind and the possibility of adding DOT tires etc. for highway service. The rear has plenty of room to mount a 2.75" tire on an appropriate rim and hub assembly. Wider & stronger forks would be necessary, but the frame already has enough room to house the V-twin & battery and a solid 3/16" thick base plate to set it all on. I'd use the same HD tube clamps to form motor to frame connections.

This will be a small motorcycle with no pretense of being a motor bike, so pedal bracket & levers not required, kick start lever and pedal levers on the CG 125 powered Simplex were a problem for the mounting and operation of a sidecar. Electric start and upgraded brakes along with a solid car mount system, rather than a leaning wheel design, will be operational and safety improvements at even low highway speeds with a passenger along. I'm opting for the safest design possible and that being (sadly) the traditional fixed wheel car.

I love the CG 125 motor in the Copper Gator & it would be difficult to change it out, but I see many very good reasons to make the motor swap as outlined above especially if I'm to put this sidecar rig together, I'll want to register and insure for liability concerns. I've watched Wret's build and his transition to upgrade and become a small motorcycle and I can't see that it's done anything but improve his build tremendously. I'd say that would be the case with the use of the Copper Gator frame...just a serious bike upgrade & a sidecar! I am leaning in the rebuild direction at the moment. If I were to build another frame I'd think I'd scale it back to house the CG 125 & use the current frame for the V-twin.

I'd still have the CG125 Peashooter Harley to sport around on and a sidecar rigged Gator to entice the ladies out for a Sunday afternoon cruise. Ol' dog's tricks don't change much!

 

[indian22]

I spent a few hours sketching and measuring various options on the frame design that could properly house the larger V-twin and also adequately balance an adult size sidecar & in the process totally eliminated the possibility of using my existing Copper Gator frame for it's construction. It's strong enough just not long enough. I'm looking at adding 10" to the wheel base & stretching not only length but also a proportionate amount in max frame height, about 4". I'd not want to "scab" that much into the existing frame. Building another frame that kinda looks like a Simplex or more descriptively a Simplex/Phoenix/early Ducati flavor frame design I've had in mind for awhile, might be fun...built with a board track/flat track flair...imagine a 1930's cafe racer spirit, but with a sidecar, heh heh. Too much coffee this morning I suppose...Rick C.

 

[Harold_B]

Two things here - no such thing as too much coffee and this is sounding so awesome! Can't wait to see it come together.

 

[indian22]

Harold this V-twin project has been rattling in my head for the best part of three years now. It was on the front burner prior to my catching fire to build the Harley Peashooter. Next I jumped the sidecar for the Simplex to the top of the stack, only to interrupt that long enough to build a motobike for my daughter in law & then the X-celsior Schwinn, which is ongoing, but nearly wrapped up. I've also recently rebuilt/modified two 2 stroke motors with cylinder reed valve, piston window induction & added 3rd. transfer ports to the barrels +++. Now I'm starting the mods to case induct/reed valve/piston window +++ another GT-5 2 cycle. Using the basic GT 90 empty case halves and reed valve/Keihin carb from GAS bike, which may be a can of worms, but I'm not too worried. I already have the rest of the parts on hand including a DAX balanced crank, so I'll make it work on a bike I've already completed, with a basically stock GT-5 motor currently powering it. Getting all three built, tuned and broke in is next, but two of those are getting really close to being squared away already.

That said the V twin is close the top of the pile of my two wheel to do list. At the moment I don't feel the V build to be a tribute to any one marque, but rather the design will follow my whimsical instincts to completion. The side car will follow the bikes lead in style.

V twin will be a separate thread.... Rick C.

 

[Ludwig II]

"At the moment I don't feel the V build to be a tribute to any one marque, but rather the design will follow my whimsical instincts to completion. The side car will follow the bikes lead in style."

I suspect a showstopper will happen.

 

[indian22]

Encouraging thought Ludwig. Although I'd rather not drag the V-twin build out time wise; I know it will require a significant time frame for completion. I've been fortunate & persuasive enough to turn the engine build over to a my Harley guy & he's the best V twin builder on the planet. Of course I explained all my hopes & expectations about my proposed bike rig for about a half hour and he basically replied "ok" & that was that. I'd be concerned if I didn't know him & his work. He also has access to his Son's dyno setup in another shop. My hoping for 30 hp didn't seem to impress him much so we will see what he comes up with. I know with him I can order what I want but be satisfied with with what he gives me. He's the man!

I have all the engine dimensions & base plate pattern measurements, from that I'll make a full size engine profile template, including battery box and electrical component enclosure to build the frame around. I'm going to make certain I have more than enough room for everything on this build, including all necessary hard points for side car hookup.

Wheelbase will need 60" + and in keeping with Simplex style quite low, 3.5" ground clearance and overall height kept low as well...17" - 36 spoke wheels mounted with S rated (110mph) tires 3" rear and 2.50" on front and side car. Disc brakes on all three wheels.

Bike frame will be double loop, like a Simplex, but that and the low overall profile is really where the analogy to a Simplex heritage will end. The height & general size of the motor dictates frame tubes both top and bottom) running parallel for most of the length required for engine and battery components. Bottom frame tubes will kick up at the rear to reach the axle drops height. Hard tail or soft tail? Could just as easily be either, but if it's to be soft I'd like to kinda keep it low key & hard to verify at 20 mph and 20 feet.

Would an electric chair (shocking idea) drive wheel be a good design? Rick C.

 

[indian22]

I've been talking with the Comet people and looks like they have a CVT that will easily handle the projected power. Rick C.

 

[indian22]

Yamaha Virago 250 cc V-twin with less than a thousand miles, wrecked & sold as insurance salvage...now mine. 20 hp @ rear wheel. Factory claims 85 mph top on a 320 lb. bike. Motor & 5 speed about the same weight and size as the Predator. Decisions ,decisions....Rick

 

[fasteddy]

Some times there are crossroads in life. Can parts of the frame of the Yamaha be used in the build if not the compete frame or is easier to build a new frame designed to use the Yamaha motor?

Steve.

 

[indian22]

Steve I hate to start anything and then change directions. I like either engine, but think I'll build around the Predator as it has more the classic look I'm after.
New frame for sure not just easier (it is) but trying to use a modern MC frame to achieve a somewhat old style look seems a daunting task. The Virago engine was about all that survived and even it is pretty dinged up... cases, oil cooler, pipes can't be reused either, but electric's survived. Rear wheel & both calipers should be ok as well...
I might end up using the V-250 in a wide tire cafe/road racer style build I've been kicking around while reading back issues of motorcycle mags. I should have a CB 175 frame somewhere, that can serve as a frame. If not I'll find a home for it. Rick C.

 

[fasteddy]

Hi Rick,

This wreck wasn't the usual rearender with the forks bent and the frame tweaked so it was written off. It went down hard at a good speed by the sound of it. After I wrote about using the frame I sat here and thought about it and it would be a lot more work than a purpose built frame for sure without and guarantee of success.

The Predator V twin would indeed have the look of an old bike motor versus the Yamaha. I'll put the popcorn on and pull up a front row seat. This build will be another great one.

Steve.

 

[indian22]

Extreme damage Steve. I don't know any details about the accident itself.

I'm planning on another "Keystone" engine clip on the V -twin. Quite similar to that which I built for my HD "Peashooter". It will make a great sidecar attachment platform & just like on the Harley a super robust motor mount. The way I have things envisioned most of the sidecar components will remain with the sidecar when detached, and the bike tubes won't end up looking like a bracket collection. The Keystone is key to this and the rig's structural integrity.

I'll only need 2 upper stabilizer connections on the bikes tube frame using this design & I can keep the car frames center of gravity lower also. Remember I'm going with a traditional sidecar design and not the "leaning wheel" design. I'll leave that for another build. Rick C.

 

[fasteddy]

I made the sidecar on the Monark so it can be removed and the bike will be free of all brackets. The tri car has one bracket welded to the bottom bracket that won't stand out to much it the bike is returned to a two wheel motorcycle or it can be removed if need be.

Steve.

 

[indian22]

I made the sidecar on the Monark so it can be removed and the bike will be free of all brackets. The tri car has one bracket welded to the bottom bracket that won't stand out to much it the bike is returned to a two wheel motorcycle or it can be removed if need be.

Steve.

I may have mentioned this in another post, but your Monark wood "run about" & Silver bear's aluminum "canoe" sidecars are the reason I started thinking sidecars, especially the nautical theme styling. I love boats! My selection of a Kayak style body for my sidecar is a result of that influence.

Relatively quick conversion from rig to solo has also been a big consideration in my design process, as is a clean bike frame with car removed. Your beautiful Monarch rig is a good example of that type thinking. Rick C.

 

[Ludwig II]

Somebody mention boats?

 

[fasteddy]

Thank you Rick. It's an honour to be considered as an inspiration . I have often looked at barrel back runabouts and thought about a second sidecar in that style. Like Ludwig's offering it would be a fun build but probably not going to happen with me in my lifetime.

I an still working on the electric tri car and that is advancing slowly but then again so am I.

Steve.

http://woodyboater.wpengine.netdna-.../06/Chris-Craft-barrel-Back-low21-640x403.jpg

 

[Ludwig II]

Steve I hate to start anything and then change directions. I like either engine, but think I'll build around the Predator as it has more the classic look I'm after.
New frame for sure not just easier (it is) but trying to use a modern MC frame to achieve a somewhat old style look seems a daunting task. The Virago engine was about all that survived and even it is pretty dinged up... cases, oil cooler, pipes can't be reused either, but electric's survived. Rear wheel & both calipers should be ok as well...
I might end up using the V-250 in a wide tire cafe/road racer style build I've been kicking around while reading back issues of motorcycle mags. I should have a CB 175 frame somewhere, that can serve as a frame. If not I'll find a home for it. Rick C.

Cafe racer Yam V twins - google Yamaha Virago XV500 535 cafe; you'll find things like this.

 

[indian22]

Steve that C. Craft is pure elegance afloat! I'd love to own her, but would dread the hours of maintenance she'd demand...a high dollar mistress for certain & probably worth it.

I'd not seen the De Luxe Launch, Ludwig & it too is inspirational with nautical lines combined in an extremely compact adult layout. I like the fender/wheel combination, as they size up proportionately with the height of the car body. The frame is tucked in neatly, forming a small step & remains hardly noticeable...I like!

To me the stylish modern Cafe bikes are noteworthy of becoming tomorrows high dollar collectors classics, minimal & sporting. The descendants of the early board track bikes & 70 or 80 years from now, selling for similar high $$ to well heeled enthusiasts. Rick C

 

[indian22]

I'm starting to get invested in the Old guys V-twin project...literally. Two engines purchased, the Predator currently being performance modified & four 17" x 1.4 DOT wheels laced & shipped. Three fronts and one rear. Side car gets one wheel & the extra for a spare tire to mount on the back of the sidecar.

I'm still looking at frame styles from the twenties and thirties & have been surprised at the number of mono shock swing axle setups. I'm currently reviewing the British/Euro builders & have pretty much decided to use a single vertical spring girder fork design, with damping along with a mono shock, swing axle rear suspension.

Disc brakes on all three wheels with the car wheel brake actuated via foot pedal. Dual brake hand lever to operate the bikes brakes.

Comet CVT will be coupled to the 670cc Predator for power transmission to a chain final.

I still intend to couple the Predator to an enlarged "Keystone" motor mount that I used for the Harley "Pea shooter" build. The Key stone offers so much strength & versatility as a frame component and coupled to a duplex tube frame the backbone of this design will be extremely solid as a motorcycle & sidecar element. This is extremely important since the mid frame will support all 4 of the sidecar attachment locations. By going to a swing arm rear I've lost the rear triangle as a side car brace element.

Fuel tank style and size is still a question, but the overall look of the bike I have in mind is twenties era & very minimal of nature, low slung and lean...much like a modified speedway rig fitted out with a car body for use on the roadways.

Sidecar body still a greatly modified kayak shell. I still hope to hold total weight of car and bike to under 300 lbs. and I'd think even that a bit on the high side high.

At any rate I'm invested and a limited start has begun. My vision of the completed rig is finally coming together & hope to spend many hours this Winter in sorting it all out.

Rick C.

 

[curtisfox]

LOL sounds good, got lots of popcorn waiting and ready.............Curt