Old Guys Simplex moto-peddle bike

GoldenMotor.com

Velodrome

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2011
2,387
271
63
Phoenix-ish
Hey Rick! Been following your build for quite a while now. Fantastic work and am learning a lot. Esp like the re-purposed Harley footpeg clamps. Been looking for something like that for a long time but didnt know what to search for. Im working on a ~1911 Flying Merkel that Im hopeing to have a bottom bracket co-axle drive much like yours. Im wondering if you could expand on how it was made. I have an idea but would like to know if im on the right track; espically the bearings used and how you joined the two sprocket shafts. I'm using the CMB bottom bracket bits seen HERE:
 

Attachments

indian22

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2014
4,734
7,740
113
Oklahoma
Hi & thanks for following, I've read many of your posts and your Pope is righteous! Very cleaver details & just looks right. Went over to Custom M.B. sight & that's 75% of a co-axle drive & the price is right. 3/4" shaft & bearing races for 2" American press fit bracket shell good stuff. If you don't have your own machine shop you will pay at least double what CMB is charging.

I'd also consider calling Pat at Sportsman Flyer, as he has the sprockets as well as the above in a reasonably priced package, set up for his builds...probably need some minor custom machine work on the sprocket carriers for your application... to get correct chain spacing for your setup.

If however you choose to build your own. Here's what I needed in addition to what CMB is offering. 2" steel American bracket shell, cut it off an old frame or search the vendors. Get the axle parts first & make sure the measurements are correct for the exact shell I.D. & length. You can also have a competent machine shop turn a steel shell to spec. I turned my own parts. I then squared up another 2" inside diameter tube & milled a saddle using a side cutter. This cradles the bracket shell for welding. you end up with a T shape which I welded to a quarter inch steel base plate which was in turn welded to the two frame rails. You are probably building on a single tube frame, if that's the case the shell is either already welded in or you would add it in a somewhat typical bottom bracket location. Build a motor mount cradle & attach to frame weld tabs &/or clamps. I used the Harley clamps and they are wicked strong but pricey. I also used 2 weld tabs for one of my rear engine mounts. These were welded onto my bottom bracket tube.

Main thing on the bottom bracket is to get the axle level & the axle ends parallel with the bikes center-line or the sprockets will wobble.

My engine is set up to be adjustable to left or right, but my goal was to do it once, but make it easy to pull the motor for service. The motor was positioned for balance & then locked into the mounts. I chose to eliminate front to rear adjustments as I chose to not have an adjustable bottom bracket. Both the pedal side chain as well as the secondary chain to the back axle are adjustable only by changing chain length, axle position and the secondary chain by idler sprocket tension. Primary chain is adjusted by length of chain & roller idler tension.

The two sprockets are jack shaft 3/4" identical size. With rear tire mounted with final drive sprocket I established a straight chain line with the inside co-axle sprocket & located a shaft collar to maintain that spacing which was both straight and prevented the chain from ever drifting into the rear tire. I had to actually mill the collar to about 2/3 rd. of it's original thickness to keep the chain at least 1/4" off the tire. (continued in next post) RC
 

indian22

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2014
4,734
7,740
113
Oklahoma
(continued from previous post)

With the engine output sprocket parallel to the bikes true center line a measurement is made to establish the distance between the two free wheeling co-axle motor drive sprockets. Distance between motor drive sprocket & the previously spaced inside co-axle sprocket is made & that distance is the total width of the two jack shaft sprockets when they are welded together. If that distance were 4.5" (measured to center of each chain line) & the combined width of the two jack shaft sprockets is 5" then 1/2" of thickness would need to be milled or surfaced off. If the distance was less, then a plate of sufficient thickness would be added. The jack shafts will be eventually welded together, but the two sprockets must remain parallel to one another in order to run true. I use a 3/4" motor shaft cut off an old electric motor to perfectly align the two sprockets together for welding, prior to welding bevel the pieces for good penetration. After welding remove the alignment shaft & ream the 3/4" hole to accept two appropriate sized press fit bearings , flush mount on each side. I also drilled the remainder of the 3/4" hole 1/32" oversize. These steel jack shafts have a key way broached into them and a set screw is used to hold the key in place. Since the key way is useless in this application I use the set screw hole as a lube point & the over sizing of the 3/4" shaft hole allows the lubricant to flow a bit easier. Zert fitting will work in the same set screw location as well. The bearings are just lightly press fitted.
Another lock collar is placed just out board of the two co-joined free wheeling sprocket carriers & locked in place. If attention is paid to detail then all chain lines will be straight and the primary & secondary chains running parallel.

This seemed a quick and effective way for me. It probably took more time to write this post than it did to make the co-axle sprocket carrier, though the bottom bracket and axle itself took quite a lot more time. I could have milled sprocket carriers and bearing carriers out of aluminum or steel and just bolted sprockets to it & made it easier to experiment with sprocket swap outs, but with a 5 speed just didn't think I'd need to. Hope this helps for your Merkel. Rick C.
 

Velodrome

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2011
2,387
271
63
Phoenix-ish
Yeah... Right... Umm: Got any more pictures?!?! laff Seriously. Thanks for the write up. I'll decipher it eventually. I have been in contact with Pat and I think we have reached the decision his shaft reduction probably wont work on my build because his are made specifically for HIS frames and HIS motor and HIS motor location ect, ect, Mine will be different. I assume your using high speed sealed bearings in the quill reduction?
 

indian22

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2014
4,734
7,740
113
Oklahoma
Yeah... Right... Umm: Got any more pictures?!?! laff Seriously. Thanks for the write up. I'll decipher it eventually. I have been in contact with Pat and I think we have reached the decision his shaft reduction probably wont work on my build because his are made specifically for HIS frames and HIS motor and HIS motor location ect, ect, Mine will be different. I assume your using high speed sealed bearings in the quill reduction?
Yes lot of detail involved & quicker done by me than explained. Bearings yes, sealed just fine...selection up to you...as you see flip answers contain no data on which you can rely. You've seen Pat's bikes and I've shown photos of the bottom bracket, co-axle, pedal side and motor side sprocket carrier (in several posts since December of 2015) & described in 2 posts yesterday. I could take Pat's axle/sprocket carrier & easily adapt it to my Simplexish build but I've had decades of machine shop experience building really complex devices & with the parts from CMB the co-axle a relatively simple arrangement that just needs to be constructed & assembled properly or you will be disappointed with the results.

As to the reduction. Pat uses a larger sprocket on his carrier primary drive assembly, which is the outside sprocket & a considerably smaller sprocket on the inside (secondary chain drive) sprocket which provides a great deal of reduction to the rear axle sprocket. I recommend this for any single speed set up. Since I'm running a five speed gearbox it's not really necessary as the box provides 5 quick solutions to reduction from over drive to low, but as I stated earlier I like the idea of having two removable sprockets on the co-axle to fine tune power transmission on a single speed setup. Pat's done some really nice work with his setup.

Custom MB, Pat & myself all use basically identical co-axle parts in the 2" American bracket, including all of the pedal side parts, small preferences appear such as cotter vs. a tapered axle shaft...mostly the same, but the big difference to you is that75% of the work is contained in that little CMB kit for about $100. What a bargain! Mine, Pat's and CMB's all fit a 2" shell... period. You can't possibly use the kit parts in a different shell without throwing away part of the kit and making or searching for parts. Buy the right shell: there are literally dozens of different sizes that are in use or have been used over the years. You can't use a 2" threaded shell without mods, 2" American press fit is the correct shell for the CMB kit. If you buy the kit determine the length of the shell which will house all the kit parts and still allow you fit the snap rings into their groves on the axle shaft. Steel shells are typically priced at $10. to $25. & are a bargain...call a REAL bike shop & have them hunt one down or pay some bandit machinist like I used to be (I've reformed) & pay an hours minimum for a few minutes of his time...you will wish you bought a shell off the shelf when you get his bill. If you happen to be using an American classic cruiser frame or a new copy of an old classic then you've a very good chance of having the shell already, if not find a real junker and cut it off. Re-purpose is good.

If you follow my lead you'll also buy a couple of go cart style jack shaft sprockets for a few bucks and stare at them after staring at the afore mentioned photos and reading how they go together. The kit has a 3/4" shaft & when you slide both these on the motor drive side of the axle you'll see where the bearings go & where the weld bead is to be laid. You will understand the explanations better with the kit and jack sprockets in hand. I'll also see if I have any photos not previously posted that would help or take some detail shots of my co-axle setup. Have fun! Rick C.

If I can help with any of this PM me any time be glad to assist & help clarify any questions
 

indian22

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2014
4,734
7,740
113
Oklahoma
The Copper Gator Simplex build got me thinking about a V-twin moto-bike & a 1920's dirt track racer design converted to a roaring twenties style "cafe racer"... boop boppity beep, if such a thing had been envisioned in that era of wild abandon. Raw, powerful, low slung, long and bodacious (the bike of course) come to mind. Loud pipes and outlandishly vulgar paint; maybe chrome yellow and black...all this from an old guy whose favorite colors are grey, black & white. Calls for a one off frame & some serious design time. I really don't want the next build to "just barely" have room for everything selected.
This one racie will damn sure be a real motorcycle, yet retaining the flavor of an early moto-pedal, but I still have the Gator to complete as well Rick C.
 

Velodrome

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2011
2,387
271
63
Phoenix-ish
Thanks for all the help Rick. I allready have the CMB crank shaft bit and I'll be verifying tomorrow that I have the 2" BB Good lead on the go kart sprokets. As to your next MC build I couldnt agree more. Yellow and black go together like collards and fried chicken!!
 

racie35

Active Member
Nov 17, 2012
1,702
5
38
usa
Cool idea Indian....someone needs to repop a vintage twin for builds for these things.
 

indian22

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2014
4,734
7,740
113
Oklahoma
Thanks guys, hope the Lord gives me time to finish the things I've dreamed up. What racie said...vintage twin forum/category guess it's Paul's decision to make, if there is enough interest expressed. I've noticed that each twin thread that actually resulted in a build had big follow interest, Lurker's way over 100,000 hits etc. On the other hand actual threads started have been relatively sparse to date. This is understandable as the extra cost is always a limiting factor in any build. Also the forums have been dedicated to motorized bicycling projects & as racie & others have pointed out motorcycle engines & large industrial size 4-strokes stretch the motor assisted pedal bike concept past snap, even with this forum's participants. They seem to really like an occasional "edge of the box" thread but not sure if most would want an expanded presence of even tribute motorcycles. I'd like it, but wouldn't want it to negatively effect other forum participants.
 

indian22

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2014
4,734
7,740
113
Oklahoma
Spent most of the day working on the Simplex. I replaced the broken throttle cable & installed a longer brake cable. I also installed mirrors and shortened the handle bars by 4", adjusted the front brakes for better caliper action & adjusted the dual springers to counter forward pitch on braking. Also bled the front tires down to 55 lbs. & tightened the head set bearings. Rerouted the clutch cable to prevent bind with the frame etc. Ran the motor no load for half an hour and adjusted idle down to 1200 & when warm the engine will run there with no assistance. Throttle response is better with more run time, so I'll not adjust till I see how it loosens up. Starts well. Took the secondary drive chain off for no load running, as I really haven't spent much time on the rear of the bike, just eyeballed it & tightened it all up for the short rides, but since the front assemblies are checked off I'll turn some of the same attention to the rear triangle. Put a copper feather on the springers and a vintage brass and silver "Correct Cycle" head badge on the flat seat spring just in front of the saddle. I didn't ruin or even damage it in the process so it could be re-purposed for a vintage bicycle in the future.

I also assembled the copper exhaust with fiberglass baffle and secured all with screws. I'll braze it all after I test ride for awhile. Looks awesome on the Copper Gator. I'll take pictures tomorrow. Rick C.
 

Attachments

  • Like
Reactions: Nightster

Velodrome

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2011
2,387
271
63
Phoenix-ish
To quote John Lydon: I could be wrong; I could be right. I could be black; I could be white. I ( eye ) think you would be doing a diservice to those who care the most to not include your MC build here. Observe all the posts from SCP. Hardly pedal bikes as they have a land speed record attached to them. Yet, they are welcome here. Witness Goldy From Nova Scotia and his FM build. Hardley a pedal bike once youv'e looked at it: http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=28747&page=11 I myself have made builds who; while capable of pedal, power you would NEVER attempt to push by pedal more than 100 yards without tempting a coranary. The Pope being one. I says go fur it! Better to go forth and ask forgiveness later; rather than cower and do not. Your fabrication skills speak of greatness and have value. I for one want to hear and see what you have to say: and in doing so learn.
 
Last edited:

indian22

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2014
4,734
7,740
113
Oklahoma
Man: I love it. Inspires me for my Simplex. But I can't see a rear brake??
It's not your eyes, the coaster brake lever isn't bolted down & has rotated behind the drops. It bolts to the slot bracket on the rear of the bottom tube. Even though the Sportsman sprocket has large access holes which are thoughtfully incorporated in their design which allows easy access to the brake lever bolt; I've had the rear wheel on and off a few times since last ride and won't bother to bolt it back again until the next road test...hopefully I won't forget. Rick C.
 

indian22

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2014
4,734
7,740
113
Oklahoma
I ( eye ) think you would be doing a diservice to those who care the most to not include your MC build here. Observe all the posts from SCP. Hardly pedal bikes as they have a land speed record attached to them. Yet, they are welcome here.

You humble me sir, thank you for pointing out the way things already are & are obviously working out quite well so I'll continue to contribute my motos for consideration no matter the size, classification or legal definitions applied. I'll just continue to depend on the moderators doing a fine job while I'm combining my bits and pieces into something, well different.

Thanks for pointing me to the Merkle build I'd over looked it & plan on reading the whole thread this evening, very nice work. Rick C.
 

indian22

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2014
4,734
7,740
113
Oklahoma
3" wide blue masking tape. Write a note on the tape with a marker and stick it on your handlebars.

Just pulled a similar note off my steering wheel yesterday. "Tighten your rear view mirror"
Pat I bought Ginko for my memory & some painters tape, but can't remember where I put them. The good thing about getting old is that you quickly forget what you were so upset about. Rick C.
 

Attachments

  • Like
Reactions: Nightster

indian22

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2014
4,734
7,740
113
Oklahoma
Come on over & play Ludwig. You would be welcome for sure.

Copper plates added behind the tank. Looking for the right contrasts from here on out. Black, copper, brass, chrome & aluminum in bits, slivers & spots. I don't want to overwhelm the eye with quantity & some attempts will end up in the the scrap bin I'm sure. Rick C.
 

Attachments