Your mistake.
You can't learn anything if you already know everything.
Things are only impossible until someone does it.
Not trying to start a fight here
- Thread starter Flyman
- Start date
You can't learn anything if you already know everything.
Things are only impossible until someone does it.
For one industry example as I happen to be somewhat familiar with them - Yamaha, a world leader in engine design & manufacture doesn't "recommend" a 100:1 ratio for their two strokes, it's preset with their injected models & mandated by warranty validation with their premix versions. Alter the ratio to what you may think is better & you'll void the warranty.
Ever since the mid-nineteen eighties, their 2hp through 25hp premix engines are all 100:1, their oil-injected models (25hp & up) vary depending on RPM from 200:1 @ idle (yes, 200:1) to no more then 50:1 at max RPM/WOT (computer aided variable mix injectors). In fact the only exception to this would be their monster 300hp two stroke, which might briefly see 25:1 if it's screaming out at redline but under normal operation it's no more then the rest, a variable 50-100:1.
http://www.yamahapubs.com/index.do?pg=search&category=4
No posts have been removed and "free speech" actually does include other people's ability to disagree with you - the previous caution was regarding the building conflict & hostility, not your ability to state your opinion, which only needs comply with rule one: "treat all members with respect" http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=2
There's a difference between debating & orating, if you're unwilling to allow others to participate in this thread should they express an opposing view - then yes, perhaps a forum where the primary objective is sharing our experiences isn't for you.
From one extreme to the other.....huh
You like the 32 or what not mix while others like the 100, so who's right and who's wrong? Are you wiping due to me using the 100 mix? Nope, the same as i am not wrong for using the 100 mix. You could argue the same about what fuel you use. .. regular, premium, or others... who's right and who is wrong?
Heck as long as you are having fun, and riding them who cares?
You like the 32 or what not mix while others like the 100, so who's right and who's wrong? Are you wiping due to me using the 100 mix? Nope, the same as i am not wrong for using the 100 mix. You could argue the same about what fuel you use. .. regular, premium, or others... who's right and who is wrong?
Heck as long as you are having fun, and riding them who cares?
my point exactly... I had to sit back from this one for a day or 2 because I saw where this was headed... we all have our own mixes and formulas for more octane and for more power etc, as well as our favorite brands of oil and favorite mix ratios. We use them because they work for us whether it's just on one engine because that's what that particular engine likes, or because we've been using the same reliable blend in all our 2 stroke toys for the last 30+ years. Trying to get someone to change the fuel or mix ratio they've been using for decades is almost as bad as asking someone to change religions, and any documentation you may have, right or wrong is not going to sway someone away from good ole "tried and true".
we had this arguement in another post and you saw the end result and should have left it at that. I've seen your other posts and I do agree that you do have a good deal of talent and knowledge, but with this whole 100:1 vs 20:1 (or any other ratio) debate, it's best to just let it be because everyone is going to use what works for them whether it be for more power, ease of tuning, reliability, or all the above.
Most of us in here who have the quicker bikes also have 20 to 30+ years of experience with 2 strokes so if you don't agree with what they're doing or how they're doing something it's best to let it be or find out why they do something a certain way.
The bottom line is what works for you and keep it fun.
we had this arguement in another post and you saw the end result and should have left it at that. I've seen your other posts and I do agree that you do have a good deal of talent and knowledge, but with this whole 100:1 vs 20:1 (or any other ratio) debate, it's best to just let it be because everyone is going to use what works for them whether it be for more power, ease of tuning, reliability, or all the above.
Most of us in here who have the quicker bikes also have 20 to 30+ years of experience with 2 strokes so if you don't agree with what they're doing or how they're doing something it's best to let it be or find out why they do something a certain way.
The bottom line is what works for you and keep it fun.
What is the reasoning to the changes in oil? Is there better power off the line or something with the thicker or thinner mix?
Goes off to read the link now.
my personal opinion since the link favors toward outboards is the really strict and constantly getting stricter emissions laws since the oil is coming out the exhaust and into the water... we're talking about spitting in the ocean proportions here, but you know the EPA... Making the oil injection variable is a very smart move tho since they can meet these stringent emissions rules but still able to correct the ratio depending on the engine's demand for lube using rpm and load as the varying factors... Also with all these newer and better synthetics out there, it's possible to run at higher ratios anyway, then bringing the ratio down as load and rpm increases. Yes, I'm contradicting myself since I run 100:1 and max out just under 10k rpm but I got a LOT of faith in the oil and the bearings too... I still miss the blue smoke trail and that smell when tearing up the woods on a KX80 back in the early 80's, but with a $100 engine with easy to duplicate porting (and very loose tolerances) I don't mind experimenting some... and glad I did, the only drawback I've seen so far is it's a lot harder to fill the shop with 2 stroke smoke when I get bored at work...
Now if they could just seal off the crank case like they did with the Detroit 2 stroke diesels from back in the 50's, 60's, and 70's and force the air/fuel into the combustion chamber via a small blower (EFI would be really nice here too), there would be no need to mix the gas and oil at all, just fill the sump like a 4 stroke, and maybe an oiling system similar to a Harley that uses the roller bearings but still uses a pump to ensure everything stays well oiled. These blowers weren't meant for making boost back then, just simply to force the air/fuel in since they couldn't rely on crank case pressure to do the job like a gasoline 2 stroke engine does. Of course, as time went by along with an increasing need for speed, a lot of these Detroit and GMC blowers ended up on flat head Fords, then small block Chevys and Mopars since they were rather good at making boost by changing the drive ratio and installing on a smaller engine than it was built for.
Most likely what's stopping this from becoming a reality with gas powered 2 smokers is the R&D cost, then production cost as well as keeping everything small and lightweight, which was and still is what makes the 2 strokes so appealing... a Lot of power in a small package.
Now if they could just seal off the crank case like they did with the Detroit 2 stroke diesels from back in the 50's, 60's, and 70's and force the air/fuel into the combustion chamber via a small blower (EFI would be really nice here too), there would be no need to mix the gas and oil at all, just fill the sump like a 4 stroke, and maybe an oiling system similar to a Harley that uses the roller bearings but still uses a pump to ensure everything stays well oiled. These blowers weren't meant for making boost back then, just simply to force the air/fuel in since they couldn't rely on crank case pressure to do the job like a gasoline 2 stroke engine does. Of course, as time went by along with an increasing need for speed, a lot of these Detroit and GMC blowers ended up on flat head Fords, then small block Chevys and Mopars since they were rather good at making boost by changing the drive ratio and installing on a smaller engine than it was built for.
Most likely what's stopping this from becoming a reality with gas powered 2 smokers is the R&D cost, then production cost as well as keeping everything small and lightweight, which was and still is what makes the 2 strokes so appealing... a Lot of power in a small package.
First I feel I should mention again I'm only "familiar" with these engines, living on the coast I'm surrounded by them, their owners and the repair & preformance technicians that tinker them - but I don't own one, I've never had to break one down or figure one out & TBH I'm not a big fan of outboards in the first place lol
...however, I may have made a poor decision to include that monstrous beast in the convo - while I wanted to provide the full range of oil use to balance the "200:1 @ idle" reference, the fact is that thing isn't even remotely a "typical" two stroke, it's far more like Davezilla was theorizing then anything even close to what's usually known as a two stroke engine.
It's actually almost exactly what you were thinkin' of Davezilla... sort of... as I understand the Z300 anyway.
The HPDI (High Pressure Direct Injection) VMAX series first forces it's oil to the crank & bearings without any fuel mix, the lower piston ring has a bypass/grooves that allow oil past to lubricate the top piston ring and upper cylinder - so essentially it's "oil/fuel" mix is blowby. The "mix ratio" amounts referenced is more regarding overall consumption rates then actual fuel/oil/air mixes.
Now while this is all sort of similar, it really isn't even remotely applicable - this thing is likely as close to a full-out racing engine as the general populace can just buy. For example it's fuel injection is provided by twin high-pressure fuel pumps delivering an incredible 1000psi - your typical automotive "high pressure" fuel pump provides about 100psi in contrast, low is around 10.
Ofc there's the engine control module (ECM) system as well with sensors that include crank position, throttle position, engine temperature, air temperature, fuel pressure and even atmospheric pressure, which is used to continually adjust the ignition timing, fuel mixture and more... even still this thing consumes something like 50-60 gallons of fuel per hour @ high cruise.
...direct injection, ECM control, etc - all familiar it's true but perhaps not to quite this extent or scale, particularly with two strokes. This is insofar as I'm aware close to the pinnacle of commercially available two strokes, very much closer to Formula One racing then the 'smokers we all know and love - any even momentary 25:1 oil ratio comparison would be much like thinking 28x10-17 Hoosier drag slicks might be needful or help a Huffy launch faster lol
Jus' for the lols - water makes for a really effective muffler so even if you've heard one of these beasts in passing, they don't seem all that rude. Forced into the confines of a cowling, they don't even seem all that impressive in size... but if you've ever heard one of these beasts hauled out & being prepped ashore for the spring/fall seasons, you'll likely understand why I made the F1 comment heh
After a bit of hunting I found a clip - but bear in mind this is "only" the 250hp and the guy's phone mic utterly fails to capture the earth-rending screams;
http://youtu.be/XEq7jGzsB54
Come spring I'll try and remember to grab a vid of one of the VMAX 300 'smokers waking up & getting ready to devour everything in it's path, it's a truly awe-inspiring sound that'll move any motorhead to thoughts unclean, even if you don't care at all for "stinkpot" boats
edit: Jus' to be sure, all of their 25hp & under premix two strokes are a constant (obv) 100:1 - which is much, MUCH closer to our relevant scale & needs then the "exotic" but amusing 300hp examples
On pg54 you'll find the general specifications for the engine family: http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/service/manuals/1/lit-18626-07-03_1417.pdf
...however, I may have made a poor decision to include that monstrous beast in the convo - while I wanted to provide the full range of oil use to balance the "200:1 @ idle" reference, the fact is that thing isn't even remotely a "typical" two stroke, it's far more like Davezilla was theorizing then anything even close to what's usually known as a two stroke engine.
It's actually almost exactly what you were thinkin' of Davezilla... sort of... as I understand the Z300 anyway.
The HPDI (High Pressure Direct Injection) VMAX series first forces it's oil to the crank & bearings without any fuel mix, the lower piston ring has a bypass/grooves that allow oil past to lubricate the top piston ring and upper cylinder - so essentially it's "oil/fuel" mix is blowby. The "mix ratio" amounts referenced is more regarding overall consumption rates then actual fuel/oil/air mixes.
Now while this is all sort of similar, it really isn't even remotely applicable - this thing is likely as close to a full-out racing engine as the general populace can just buy. For example it's fuel injection is provided by twin high-pressure fuel pumps delivering an incredible 1000psi - your typical automotive "high pressure" fuel pump provides about 100psi in contrast, low is around 10.
Ofc there's the engine control module (ECM) system as well with sensors that include crank position, throttle position, engine temperature, air temperature, fuel pressure and even atmospheric pressure, which is used to continually adjust the ignition timing, fuel mixture and more... even still this thing consumes something like 50-60 gallons of fuel per hour @ high cruise.
...direct injection, ECM control, etc - all familiar it's true but perhaps not to quite this extent or scale, particularly with two strokes. This is insofar as I'm aware close to the pinnacle of commercially available two strokes, very much closer to Formula One racing then the 'smokers we all know and love - any even momentary 25:1 oil ratio comparison would be much like thinking 28x10-17 Hoosier drag slicks might be needful or help a Huffy launch faster lol
Jus' for the lols - water makes for a really effective muffler so even if you've heard one of these beasts in passing, they don't seem all that rude. Forced into the confines of a cowling, they don't even seem all that impressive in size... but if you've ever heard one of these beasts hauled out & being prepped ashore for the spring/fall seasons, you'll likely understand why I made the F1 comment heh
After a bit of hunting I found a clip - but bear in mind this is "only" the 250hp and the guy's phone mic utterly fails to capture the earth-rending screams;
http://youtu.be/XEq7jGzsB54
Come spring I'll try and remember to grab a vid of one of the VMAX 300 'smokers waking up & getting ready to devour everything in it's path, it's a truly awe-inspiring sound that'll move any motorhead to thoughts unclean, even if you don't care at all for "stinkpot" boats
edit: Jus' to be sure, all of their 25hp & under premix two strokes are a constant (obv) 100:1 - which is much, MUCH closer to our relevant scale & needs then the "exotic" but amusing 300hp examples
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Now that fuel system sounds very familiar to me... that's the same way the Ford EcoBoost engines work... direct injection sprayed in at nearly 2000 psi straight into the cylinder at just the right time like a diesel engine... It always feels kinda strange when driving an EcoBoost truck because you put your foot into it and it plants you into the seatback like a big block v8 or a first generation Powerstroke diesel, then ya look under the hood to find this rather tiny v6. the latest generation powerstroke diesel with 400 hp and 800lb ft torque has neck snapping acceleration tho... if you can even get traction. Last time I drove one I had to put it into 4wd just to feel the power because the tires would spin even from 30mph or so... and the 2015 model hav 40 more HP and 60 more lb/ft torque bringing the numbers up to 440hp and 860 lb/ft torque... enough to make an 8000 pound truck accelerate better than most sports cars out there.
Ok... enough on that.. Sorry, but I do get to drive some very beastly trucks doing the work I do
But I know exactly what you're talking about with these newer outboard engines and being the closest thing to an F1 racer engine you can get... I'm thinking direct injection is the key to sealing off the crank case and adding a true oiling system and the ability to run straight gas on the upper half with just enough lube for the rings... once that's worked out just a little better then the engineers could design a 2 stroke car engine again. only this time no smoke from the exhaust and all the benefit of every down stroke making power instead of every other... The closest I've heard of anyone doing this is in those late model outbrard 2 strokes, and Yes... these things are Very beastly.
Ok... enough on that.. Sorry, but I do get to drive some very beastly trucks doing the work I do
But I know exactly what you're talking about with these newer outboard engines and being the closest thing to an F1 racer engine you can get... I'm thinking direct injection is the key to sealing off the crank case and adding a true oiling system and the ability to run straight gas on the upper half with just enough lube for the rings... once that's worked out just a little better then the engineers could design a 2 stroke car engine again. only this time no smoke from the exhaust and all the benefit of every down stroke making power instead of every other... The closest I've heard of anyone doing this is in those late model outbrard 2 strokes, and Yes... these things are Very beastly.
Remember the Orbital engine from Aussie Land in the 90s maybe. I believe Chrysler bought the rights. It was hi-pressure injected and made killer HP. I vaguely remember Chrysler had a very small displacement engine V type engine that made over 400hp. Seems that the engines also ran oil in the crankcase. Just disappeared like a lot of cool ideas.
Today, I switched from my break in mix of 22:1 to a mix of 32:1, and I noticed a HUGE increase in power, probably as much as 20% more.
Ha Ha Ha Welcome to free speech. This is Sooooooooooo funny, I,m about to fall
out of my chair.Removing post & Oh forget it, like dealing with a child. One thing
the Net is a very big place & word gets around my friend.
Fly (wink)
out of my chair.Removing post & Oh forget it, like dealing with a child. One thing
the Net is a very big place & word gets around my friend.
Fly (wink)
Map I think I,m about to be struck out & sent packing. If that's the case it's been fun chatting with you brother.
Fly
Fly
Nah you'll be fine Fly...
Just let it all go and we an all live laugh and have a little love....
Aint o topic or opi ion right or wrong worth it, just let it all go bro and we shall move on together and continue our conversations like nothing ever even happened.
A woman told me concerning arguing with ones better half one time.
" do you want to be right? Or do you want to be happy?"
Sometimes we have to just let it all go and make a choice to be happy and turn the page on a new day and forget what lies behind and press on toward other goals and conversations.
Breathe in and Breathe out and lets enjoy this great forum and all the cool motorized bike stuff we all enjoy.
G. B.
Map
I agree.. just let it go and don't let stuff get to ya... people don't always agree with everything we say all the time and at the end of the day we all walk away friends... you'll be fine and you do contribute positively in here with good advice to those with less experience or knowledge of these things...
yeah, there are somensore subjects guaranteed to end up with lots of unwanted drama so when people ask about stuff like break in procedures or oil mix ratios we just put out our suggestions what worked for us as individuals and leave it at that, otherwise it almost always ends up bad. More huge arguements have broke out over those 2 topics than all others combined it seems... so its usually best to just drop off your answer and not worry about what the next guy says unless its obviously bad advise and at that point the rest of us will all jump in if someone is intentionally giving advise that can ruin an engine or cause a wreck etc... the mods usually jump in if it looks like something might turn ugly... one of the most knowledgeable guys on these engines did get banned for pushing a topic too far that could harm an engine if done, but it was more that the guy kept insisting something potentially harmful was perfectly safe... maybe for those of us who have the experience and know how to do that mod correctly, but definitely not something id suggest to a newb to 2 smokers or someone who never even opened up an engine at all to do this mod on their own... I still wouldn't do that mod the way this guy said to do it personally, but it was because he kept insisting and pushing the issue like it was perfectly safe the way he mentioned instead of listening to a better and safer way etc.... but I'm sure there was more to that situation too...
yeah, there are somensore subjects guaranteed to end up with lots of unwanted drama so when people ask about stuff like break in procedures or oil mix ratios we just put out our suggestions what worked for us as individuals and leave it at that, otherwise it almost always ends up bad. More huge arguements have broke out over those 2 topics than all others combined it seems... so its usually best to just drop off your answer and not worry about what the next guy says unless its obviously bad advise and at that point the rest of us will all jump in if someone is intentionally giving advise that can ruin an engine or cause a wreck etc... the mods usually jump in if it looks like something might turn ugly... one of the most knowledgeable guys on these engines did get banned for pushing a topic too far that could harm an engine if done, but it was more that the guy kept insisting something potentially harmful was perfectly safe... maybe for those of us who have the experience and know how to do that mod correctly, but definitely not something id suggest to a newb to 2 smokers or someone who never even opened up an engine at all to do this mod on their own... I still wouldn't do that mod the way this guy said to do it personally, but it was because he kept insisting and pushing the issue like it was perfectly safe the way he mentioned instead of listening to a better and safer way etc.... but I'm sure there was more to that situation too...
ive been guilty in the past o taking something to far, just because i want the truth to be known, but as we should all be aware of, people will believe what they want and nothing you can do to change that.
lol......yep oil ratios and break in procedures will start a flaming debate in a heartbeat, its best to do it all ina way that has proven good for us personally and never argue the points, its always a dead end road that ends up benefiting no one.
opposing opinions shouldnt be taken personal on here, we say our piece and move on, if a clearer point needs to be made to someone that really needs help, we have the PM option and that can prevent others feeling the need to jump in and give there $0.02 on a controversial subject.
lol......yep oil ratios and break in procedures will start a flaming debate in a heartbeat, its best to do it all ina way that has proven good for us personally and never argue the points, its always a dead end road that ends up benefiting no one.
opposing opinions shouldnt be taken personal on here, we say our piece and move on, if a clearer point needs to be made to someone that really needs help, we have the PM option and that can prevent others feeling the need to jump in and give there $0.02 on a controversial subject.
Here's some of the best advice I ever got:
When arguing with your wife if at ANY time you suddenly find yourself winning, APOLOGIZE IMMEDIATELY!
When arguing with your wife if at ANY time you suddenly find yourself winning, APOLOGIZE IMMEDIATELY!