Committing forgery: A Faux Rudge Autocycle build.
- Thread starter Intrepid Wheelwoman
- Start date
Thanks Curt 
I'll keep that in mind about the hacksaw blades, - only most of the shops around here stock 12 inch blades and I might need to go further afield to find 10 inch blades.
It's highly likely that I will be making skirt guards Ludwig. I haven't looked at how I might do that just yet as I'll need to allow for the drive chain from the engine on the left hand side. It should be an interesting piece of tin bashing work though
I was able to buy two Raleigh parts bikes in the weekend for the princely sum of $1.00. The chap selling them didn't want to put them in the council tip and was glad to see them go to someone who could use them. One bike is a conventional ladies model and I have an idea for a frame mod I'd like to try.
I'll keep that in mind about the hacksaw blades, - only most of the shops around here stock 12 inch blades and I might need to go further afield to find 10 inch blades.It's highly likely that I will be making skirt guards Ludwig. I haven't looked at how I might do that just yet as I'll need to allow for the drive chain from the engine on the left hand side. It should be an interesting piece of tin bashing work though
I was able to buy two Raleigh parts bikes in the weekend for the princely sum of $1.00. The chap selling them didn't want to put them in the council tip and was glad to see them go to someone who could use them. One bike is a conventional ladies model and I have an idea for a frame mod I'd like to try.
I thing the same person that shrink wraps hack saw blades is the same person who decided
to put the bar code on the bottom of the 40 kilo bag of what ever you just bought. As a matter of fact it's on the bottom of every thing it seems.
Nice to see the Rudge taking shape and it's good to hear that your feeling a little better. The $1.00 for the two bikes is a nice buy and I agree with the seller, It's a shame to toss them out when someone can use them.
Steve.
to put the bar code on the bottom of the 40 kilo bag of what ever you just bought. As a matter of fact it's on the bottom of every thing it seems.
Nice to see the Rudge taking shape and it's good to hear that your feeling a little better. The $1.00 for the two bikes is a nice buy and I agree with the seller, It's a shame to toss them out when someone can use them.
Steve.
Thanks Steve Yes i seem to be doing better healthwise, only I'm very aware that I still need to be careful as my energy reserved aren't very deep.
I found a couple of interesting photos that Ludwig posted over in the European Motorised Bikes thread. I've tucked them away for future reference as I really like this style of bike and anything I build needs to have a stepthru frame due to the long skirts I wear.
Yes i seem to be doing better healthwise, only I'm very aware that I still need to be careful as my energy reserved aren't very deep.I found a couple of interesting photos that Ludwig posted over in the European Motorised Bikes thread. I've tucked them away for future reference as I really like this style of bike and anything I build needs to have a stepthru frame due to the long skirts I wear.
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For the skirt guard, consider the style used on the ladies 1930Peugeot, but I don't know how the cords/wires are fitted.
There are also suppliers of sari guards, not a lot of people know that outside India.
http://www.indiamart.com/deepshikhaindustries/new-items.html
There are also suppliers of sari guards, not a lot of people know that outside India.
http://www.indiamart.com/deepshikhaindustries/new-items.html
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It's Ok Ludwig I do
It's a good system and essentially very simple. I will need to drill the edges of the rear mudguard though and make the lower fan shaped piece to hold the other end of the cords. It can be done using wheel spokes too which looks very nice indeed.
That little Peugeot is a very pretty bike.
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I had a 1938 Elgin with a rear fender like that for lacing a skirt guard. Spokes would look great!
SB
SB
Now that would look cool! silverbear you'd probably have to fab a bracket that mounts to either the fender struts or axel drop outs ? but it would look Cool!
This is the part of a skirtguard that connects to the rear dropouts. Genuine vintage Raleigh (not mine unfortunately).
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Well it makes it a little easier to fab when you've got something to go by and at least you now know what to look for.
I think some gold spokes would look Cool! and would mimic brass real good.
I think some gold spokes would look Cool! and would mimic brass real good.
So that's what the original looked like. That would work for string easily enough, but I think Truckd is right that something would need to be fabricated in order to use spokes.
If the end of the spokes that would fit onto a hub normally were fitted into the holes on the fender then the other ends which would normally fit into the rim of a wheel then the part fabricated would need to have a flange of some kind with holes drilled into the flange. Say you had a smallish stout tin can and using a cut off wheel removed most of the body of the can and of the circular end piece cut away enough to have something like the Raleigh stock piece pictured, then the piece would be held in place by the axle axle nut and the spokes would be threaded into nipples on the flanged part. Something like that might work, do you think?
Using a tin can might not be stout enough, but some cans are heavier than others. Seems to me that a can like what tennis balls used to come in was quite stout. I suppose they are plastic now. If you had access to a hand cranked flanging tool as tinsmiths use then you could do the flange in something stronger and not have to use a can. Just thinking. Or for that little bit you could perhaps make a flange with your shoe last and a ball peen hammer tapping it a bit at a time. I think that might work. It isn't as if the spokes would be under tension.
SB
I'd take a bent, busted up, beat rim and cut the sides down then fab plate for the drop out, weld em up and there Ya go, that way you'd have a place to install the spoke nipples
Something I don't lack for is beaten up old wheel rims Truckd
True enough, - if you know what a part is supposed to look like you're well on the way to being able to make it. And yes for spokes a turned over flange is essential. As you say SB the spokes aren't under any kind of tension which makes it easier to setup.
Years ago all good cycle shops would have a tool to punch the necessary holes in a rear mudguard for a skirt guard. However I think if I went into any of the bicycle shops around here they would just look at me and go, 'Huh?'
I wonder if a good leather punch would do it?
True enough, - if you know what a part is supposed to look like you're well on the way to being able to make it. And yes for spokes a turned over flange is essential. As you say SB the spokes aren't under any kind of tension which makes it easier to setup.
Years ago all good cycle shops would have a tool to punch the necessary holes in a rear mudguard for a skirt guard. However I think if I went into any of the bicycle shops around here they would just look at me and go, 'Huh?'
I wonder if a good leather punch would do it?
Intrepid,
I used to do a good bit of leather work, making horse tack, footwear and that sort of thing. The punches I had would not like fenders much, I think. but as you suggest it would depend on the quality of the punches. Drilling fender holes out shouldn't be a problem. I still have the fenders from my 1938 Elgin, although warped by fire I could count the number of holes if that would help any.
A bike shop might not have a suitable punch, but a tinsmith certainly would. Probably a coppersmith would as well, although those old tradesmen are disappearing fast. In another generation they will for the most part be gone, I think.
A couple of years ago I had the very good fortune of working Saturday mornings in my friend Dan's tinsmith shop working on our bike projects. He is know here on the forum as "Tinsmith' and learned the trade from an old time artisan. Now Dan is the old time artisan and there is no one to follow. When we made some gas tanks for my projects he punched the holes for mountings and petcock with a hand held tool which accepted different sized punches which threaded in much like the same tool in a lighter duty version made for leather work. It made holes in tin, light steel and copper as if it was paper. For larger holes he had individual punches and had a stump (log round) in his shop with a disc on top he had made from melted lead scraps. This disc which was two inch or three inches thick and perhaps six inches in diameter served as a backing for the metal being punched so as not to further dull the punch as it pierced the copper or tin piece. Working with Dan was like looking into another era of metal crafting, perhaps something like those early days when bicycles morphed into motorcycles.
If you do the spokes for your skirt guard it will undoubtedly look excellent. I hope you do so that we can see it.
SB
I used to do a good bit of leather work, making horse tack, footwear and that sort of thing. The punches I had would not like fenders much, I think. but as you suggest it would depend on the quality of the punches. Drilling fender holes out shouldn't be a problem. I still have the fenders from my 1938 Elgin, although warped by fire I could count the number of holes if that would help any.
A bike shop might not have a suitable punch, but a tinsmith certainly would. Probably a coppersmith would as well, although those old tradesmen are disappearing fast. In another generation they will for the most part be gone, I think.
A couple of years ago I had the very good fortune of working Saturday mornings in my friend Dan's tinsmith shop working on our bike projects. He is know here on the forum as "Tinsmith' and learned the trade from an old time artisan. Now Dan is the old time artisan and there is no one to follow. When we made some gas tanks for my projects he punched the holes for mountings and petcock with a hand held tool which accepted different sized punches which threaded in much like the same tool in a lighter duty version made for leather work. It made holes in tin, light steel and copper as if it was paper. For larger holes he had individual punches and had a stump (log round) in his shop with a disc on top he had made from melted lead scraps. This disc which was two inch or three inches thick and perhaps six inches in diameter served as a backing for the metal being punched so as not to further dull the punch as it pierced the copper or tin piece. Working with Dan was like looking into another era of metal crafting, perhaps something like those early days when bicycles morphed into motorcycles.
If you do the spokes for your skirt guard it will undoubtedly look excellent. I hope you do so that we can see it.
SB
My Dad was an old school sheetmetal tradesman and my brother learned his trade in a panelbeating shop that did vintage car restorations. The kind of skills they had at their fingertips are also fast disappearing.
Here in the country we still have a few old fashioned tradespeople, but most of them are older folk which means that as time goes on their numbers are going to dwindle. Off the top of my head I wouldn't know if we still have a coppersmith in the district.
When I'm helping my daughter with tricky car repairs where a factory tool is lacking we often share a moment when, 'How did you do that Mum? -show me again,' get's said with a certain amount of wide eyed surprise on my daughter's part. In my own small way I guess I'm passing on my own skills.
In a way I envy you for the time you've been able to spend working with Dan. My Dad died 25 years ago now and there have been so many times when I find myself wishing I could ask him to, 'Show me that again'. (sigh)
SB, if you could give me the number of holes and their spacing on your Elgin fenders that would certainly be a help. I'll most probably make a simple jig out of wood and do the hole drilling on the drill press so as to not to make a mess of my nice NOS mudguards.
And yes there will be pictures
Here in the country we still have a few old fashioned tradespeople, but most of them are older folk which means that as time goes on their numbers are going to dwindle. Off the top of my head I wouldn't know if we still have a coppersmith in the district.
When I'm helping my daughter with tricky car repairs where a factory tool is lacking we often share a moment when, 'How did you do that Mum? -show me again,' get's said with a certain amount of wide eyed surprise on my daughter's part. In my own small way I guess I'm passing on my own skills.
In a way I envy you for the time you've been able to spend working with Dan. My Dad died 25 years ago now and there have been so many times when I find myself wishing I could ask him to, 'Show me that again'. (sigh)
SB, if you could give me the number of holes and their spacing on your Elgin fenders that would certainly be a help. I'll most probably make a simple jig out of wood and do the hole drilling on the drill press so as to not to make a mess of my nice NOS mudguards.
And yes there will be pictures
Intrepid,
I was going to go out in the morning and brush the snow off of my old, twisted up fender to count the holes and perhaps take a picture, then remembered that I had recently seen an old photo or two of my 38 Elgin before it got wrecked in a truck fire along with a 39 Elgin, sidecar and a winter's worth of other bike projects.
I had bought the 38 on Ebay for a really good price and wanted it mostly for cool parts, although I thought about just putting a China girl motor on it and leaving it be as it had nice paint yet... considering it's age was in very good condition. Rode well, too.
I took these pictures to record other things for myself, but a couple of them also show the rear fender. The little hook deal at the fender holes suggest that a single piece of string, wire, yarn or whatever was laced through in a back and forth pattern to the hub plate.
The plate affair under the seat was an idea I had for making a mount for a behind the seat gas tank. It wasn't done yet, but I had finished the gas tank made from a juice can and covered in hand stitched harness leather I had left over from the time I raised Indian ponies a long time ago. It would have worked nicely, I think. I still have that plate, salvaged the seat and rebuilt it, salvaged the cool chain guard and that's about it. Still have the gas tank, I think.
I hope the photos are helpful and will try to get a measurement of the spacing between fender holes in the morning.
SB
I was going to go out in the morning and brush the snow off of my old, twisted up fender to count the holes and perhaps take a picture, then remembered that I had recently seen an old photo or two of my 38 Elgin before it got wrecked in a truck fire along with a 39 Elgin, sidecar and a winter's worth of other bike projects.
I had bought the 38 on Ebay for a really good price and wanted it mostly for cool parts, although I thought about just putting a China girl motor on it and leaving it be as it had nice paint yet... considering it's age was in very good condition. Rode well, too.
I took these pictures to record other things for myself, but a couple of them also show the rear fender. The little hook deal at the fender holes suggest that a single piece of string, wire, yarn or whatever was laced through in a back and forth pattern to the hub plate.
The plate affair under the seat was an idea I had for making a mount for a behind the seat gas tank. It wasn't done yet, but I had finished the gas tank made from a juice can and covered in hand stitched harness leather I had left over from the time I raised Indian ponies a long time ago. It would have worked nicely, I think. I still have that plate, salvaged the seat and rebuilt it, salvaged the cool chain guard and that's about it. Still have the gas tank, I think.
I hope the photos are helpful and will try to get a measurement of the spacing between fender holes in the morning.
SB
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I don’t if it’s of any value for this discussion, but here’s a pic of my turn of the century Lady’s Elgin.
It just has simple “eye plates" on the rear axle so a sturdy cord (string) could be passed through them and the holes in the rear fender...
This seems to have been the preferred method for antique skirt guards here in the states, I’ve never seen rod, spoke or wire before. Although that's certainly an interesting idea and would be a durable alternative!
-Kirk
It just has simple “eye plates" on the rear axle so a sturdy cord (string) could be passed through them and the holes in the rear fender...
This seems to have been the preferred method for antique skirt guards here in the states, I’ve never seen rod, spoke or wire before. Although that's certainly an interesting idea and would be a durable alternative!
-Kirk
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The way those holes are done is really fascinating SB. I did have a prewar Empire Ladies bicycle in rough condition that had the rear mudguard drilled with ordinary plain holes for skirtguard cords, - only I sold it some time ago as it was getting so that I couldn't move for old bicycles. I should have measured up the mudguard before i sold it, only life was a bit more full for me back then as I was still caring for Mum.
That blue Elgin was a pretty bike and i can see why you liked it. That fire must've been a major blow for you SB and I hope and pray that the passing of time has helped to ease your sorrow at the loss of such lovely old bikes.
by the way now that I've seen the picture of your leather covered juice can petrol tank I never would have guessed it's humble origins.
I've ordered some Rudge decals (see picture). The large ones are suitable for use as a headbadge and also for the transfer that was placed on the rear mudguard above the reflector. The small ones were placed on the front forks one each side just below the fork crown. Older Nottingham Rudges had an all black badge, it was the later ones that had the red and black badge.
I do have a Rudge frame with a black headbadge, - only I have this strict policy of not removing headbadges from serviceable frames. Actually to tell the complete truth I just plain prefer the red and black version of the badge so even if i did have a loose and unemployed black Rudge headbadge I wouldn't use it on the faux Rudge.
There are other Rudge decals/transfers I will be needing as the project moves along, but there's plenty to be done before I order those.
That blue Elgin was a pretty bike and i can see why you liked it. That fire must've been a major blow for you SB and I hope and pray that the passing of time has helped to ease your sorrow at the loss of such lovely old bikes.
by the way now that I've seen the picture of your leather covered juice can petrol tank I never would have guessed it's humble origins.
I've ordered some Rudge decals (see picture). The large ones are suitable for use as a headbadge and also for the transfer that was placed on the rear mudguard above the reflector. The small ones were placed on the front forks one each side just below the fork crown. Older Nottingham Rudges had an all black badge, it was the later ones that had the red and black badge.
I do have a Rudge frame with a black headbadge, - only I have this strict policy of not removing headbadges from serviceable frames. Actually to tell the complete truth I just plain prefer the red and black version of the badge so even if i did have a loose and unemployed black Rudge headbadge I wouldn't use it on the faux Rudge.
There are other Rudge decals/transfers I will be needing as the project moves along, but there's plenty to be done before I order those.
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What a lovely bicycle! The chainguard is very pretty. I see what you mean about the eye plates which are quite different to the fan-like Raleigh plates I posted earlier.
Yes Kirk, cord was what was mostly used on English bicycles too. Using wire, rods or spokes was much more rare, but one of the reasons why I want to do it is that it will be much more durable than cord. All my bicycles get used, none of them are polish queens, so practicality wins out for me when it comes to period accessories..