White wire, headlight, elctrical stuff

[Creative Engineering]

I hate to do it but...

I did buy one cheapo kit to sacrifice in the name of R&D. I'll pick out a bit of the black Goo that seals the CDI and find out what will attack it, (dissolve it), so that we can see what's inside. Lacquer thinner, Gunk Hydroseal...anyone know? How about Goo-Gone?

Jim

 

[jasonh]

I believe it's some type of resin...not sure what would actually dissolve it without dissolving the rest of the components. Might be able to carefully use a torch. I think Norman was trying a soldering iron.

 

[Creative Engineering]

I believe it's some type of resin...not sure what would actually dissolve it without dissolving the rest of the components. Might be able to carefully use a torch. I think Norman was trying a soldering iron.

I'll find something that will aggressively dissolve this without ruining what-ever is inside. I know what you mean...a destruct for info isn't any good if it all goes in the crapper.

I remember trying this years ago when I had far less patience...I never learned anything because I was left with bits and pieces of resin with components buried inside.

I'm hoping to do it so that everything is recognizable when done. I'm afraid heat may char the stuff to the components so that we can't really tell what they are.

Jim

 

[jasonh]

I have a feeling there isn't gonna be much in there, haha.

Now back to the power generation...here's what I'm thinking.

cut off the legs from the stock coil and put 3 more coils in there as my drawing shows. The mounting bracket would probably have to mount at the holes for the cover, and something would have to be figured out for the cover...maybe use studs and thin nuts to hold the coils, then notch the bottom of the cover so it can slide on the studs and not be effected by the nuts, then nut the cover in place.

Anyway, then machine a new rotor out of steel. I think it's 1 3/8" diameter or so, not sure of the thickness. On each "pole" of the rotor, machine out a circular space for a magnet (N50/52 would be best, N42 would still be better than stock). magnet should be just a little smaller than the thickness of the rotor. These should be epoxied in place, one with N out, one with S out. Obviously you'd need the center hole in there, with keyway if that's how the stock one is. (make sure it's keyed the same as the stock so N is in the same spot relative to the keyway)

The 3 other coils should be wound to produce approx 5v each if possible, with 20-22ga wire. This is to account for the 1.4v drop you'll get if you try to bridge rectify to DC, and will provide the proper voltage for charging a battery if the user should choose. 20ga wire will provide for 132w, and 22ga would provide 84w. These would be connected in series, and have a completely separate ground from the stock ignition coil. (yes this would mean a whole two wires going to the lights.)

...I think that's all I got.

 

[Creative Engineering]

I have a feeling there isn't gonna be much in there, haha.

I have a feeling there isn't gonna be much in there myself, which leaves the question...WHAT IS PROVIDING THE SPARK!!!

At a .020 Plug gap the spark is adequate enough to make the engine run.

I'm thinking that this set-up is providing a minimum of 20KV to arc the plug?
10KV per .010" plug gap is typical.

I'm fairly certain that the coil-in-coil is providing the high voltage needed to fire the engine.

Ted has been there, "done that", when it comes to this stuff! I will wait for him to report back.

Jim

 

[jasonh]

To generate 20kv, you'd need the CDI to generate 200v in the capacitor(s) and then would need a 100:1 coil I believe.

At standard temperature and pressure, it takes roughly 3kv to jump a spark 1mm. I am unsure how much pressure and temperature effect it though.

If you have a running motor, it wouldn't be hard to find out what voltage that coil is producing...as long as you have something capable of measuring that many volts.

What do you think about my ideas for the power coils? I wouldn't think too terribly much machining would be needed, and it would all be mostly simple I believe. Seems like it could be an easy bolt-on.

I think if we were able to get a solid 12v@12-15amps out of something, there is lots of potential for a very simple high powered ignition as well. I would initially concentrate on just getting 12v and enough to run a decent headlight..say 6amps or so.

 

[2door]

Jim, Tom here. You bring up a good point regarding a built in rev limiter. I've felt that something is holding my engine back and keeping it from really peaking. It runs good, pulls me close to 30mph but it always sounds like there should be more. If you guys can figure out a lighting circuit run by the mag or a similar device then how hard would it be to use the mag to fire a standard ignition coil by installing a set of points? Points and condenser ignition worked for years on B&S small engines, cars, airplanes etc. way before electronic ignition came along. I realize that points are going to require a cam of some design but that couldn't be too hard to figure out.As for mag cover/ crank clearance, I've got only about a 1/16" between them. Standard Target mountain bike frame. That ain't much to play with.

 

[Creative Engineering]

Jim, Tom here. You bring up a good point regarding a built in rev limiter. I've felt that something is holding my engine back and keeping it from really peaking. It runs good, pulls me close to 30mph but it always sounds like there should be more. If you guys can figure out a lighting circuit run by the mag or a similar device then how hard would it be to use the mag to fire a standard ignition coil by installing a set of points? Points and condenser ignition worked for years on B&S small engines, cars, airplanes etc. way before electronic ignition came along. I realize that points are going to require a cam of some design but that couldn't be too hard to figure out.As for mag cover/ crank clearance, I've got only about a 1/16" between them. Standard Target mountain bike frame. That ain't much to play with.

Tom,

Excellent, excellent, excellent...I had thought about just that! Our motocrossers were set up that way. The problem is: the crankshaft is REALLY flimsy at this end. I think the turned down portion of the crank that the magnet attaches to is only about 1/4" in diameter. This would be O.K. for a cam that opened and closed the points. I don't think it would support a drum with magnets, which is a typical dirt bike set-up.

Your post brings the question...What did the Russians do? If this engine is a copy of an old Russian design, it must have had points?

This is something to look into! In digging around on the net if anyone finds some good photos of how the Russians did it...please post!

Now for pedal clearance...I've been wondering...is it the 3 piece cranks that are closer together, (as opposed to the single forged crank), or is it something else. I've sold about 50 clutch kits. I had one customer out of 50 tell me that his crank comes really close to the housing. I didn't think to ask at the time, but now I'm thinking it's the 3 piece cranks.

Jim

 

[Norman]

some of the things I've fooled with.

I've taken the cdi black box apart by using a soldering iron to crumble the epoxy resin in side is a coil and a cap. with a small circuit board my iron is a little small on wattage and my tip is broke so I quit messing with it.
As for lights I have what I think is a good working headlight and taillight using just the white wire for its power. this light can also be powered with a 6 volt latern battery or a 6 volt wet cell but I have not tried to charge any battery with the white wire.
Most all of the guys that have tried my light like it one guy had trouble with it but I think he has some problems with his engine when he hooked the light up to his buddies bike the light worked good his bike would die when he hooked the light up to his bike. what causes this is usually a bad sparkplug on the verge of fowling I've had that problem the cure is a new plug. I don't know if he ever got it corrected or not as I have not heard form him.
Norman

 

[Creative Engineering]

some of the things I've fooled with.

I've taken the cdi black box apart by using a soldering iron to crumble the epoxy resin in side is a coil and a cap. with a small circuit board my iron is a little small on wattage and my tip is broke so I quit messing with it.
As for lights I have what I think is a good working headlight and taillight using just the white wire for its power. this light can also be powered with a 6 volt latern battery or a 6 volt wet cell but I have not tried to charge any battery with the white wire.
Most all of the guys that have tried my light like it one guy had trouble with it but I think he has some problems with his engine when he hooked the light up to his buddies bike the light worked good his bike would die when he hooked the light up to his bike. what causes this is usually a bad sparkplug on the verge of fowling I've had that problem the cure is a new plug. I don't know if he ever got it corrected or not as I have not heard form him.
Norman

Norman,

How big was the coil? I'm thinking it may be a choke? What was on the circuit board?

I would like to order your light kit...let me know how to proceed.

I am building a bike for one of my customers...it will be a christmas present for his wife. I would really like to put lights on it. I really don't need the housings, they are going to be billet.

Jim

 

[jasonh]

2door, that's what I've been talking about since the beginning of this thread

Except instead of points I would be going with a reluctor pickup (just another small coil). I think a good 12v ignition would be awesome on these things.

Jim, you say the crankshaft is flimsy on this end? That's a bummer. I was actually hoping to rip up an electric start to the magneto side. I figure if the pull start can be on that side, an electric start should be able to work from there too. Well, I'll get around to trying it one of these days.

 

[Creative Engineering]

2door, that's what I've been talking about since the beginning of this thread

Except instead of points I would be going with a reluctor pickup (just another small coil). I think a good 12v ignition would be awesome on these things.

Jim, you say the crankshaft is flimsy on this end? That's a bummer. I was actually hoping to rip up an electric start to the magneto side. I figure if the pull start can be on that side, an electric start should be able to work from there too. Well, I'll get around to trying it one of these days.

Yes, yes ,yes you're right! How does the pull start attach, work? I know they are available. This end of the crank is really light.

Jim

 

[jasonh]

I think they attach right on the end and you lock the nut over it, but I'm not sure.

 

[misteright1_99]

Your post brings the question...What did the Russians do? If this engine is a copy of an old Russian design, it must have had points?

This is something to look into! In digging around on the net if anyone finds some good photos of how the Russians did it...please post!

Jim

Here is a link from Grubee with some photos that that might help................

RUSSIAN M21 INSTRUCTIONS

 

[Hot Dog Piggy Tails]

AND YOU CAN ADD A HEAD LIGHT OR TAIL LIGHT ONTO YOUR BIKE BY CONNECTING THE 6 VOLT WHITE AND BLUE COLOR WIRES FROM THE ENGINE SO THAT YOU CAN RIDE IT AT NIGHT !!?

White and blue? I thought it was White and black
HA HA White and ground the white and blue are probably out of phase thouw the collapse is probably the prob like brother said. Oh this is actually advertised white to blue? havent tries it. I successfully run rear lights on them but any more and nope isnt running or well at least. Jims right about the spindle on the Mag sid its pretty small. Same bearing on each side though. Hey hey hey.probably why we can get away with the pull start. there well theres a dude with enough time that'l have the answer.! so the Pullstart doesnt have a magnet built into it?

 

[Creative Engineering]

Very cool,

misteright1_99

That's it! Now to make it work on the Chinese version. The Russian version has a lot more room in the mag housing area.

Jim

 

[jasonh]

Wow that Russian motor is way cooler than the China version.

I would stray away from the points and condenser ignition. When you have a setup like that you can have a lot of problems with the points, since you're sending such high voltage through the points. A better system would be a transistor-assisted electronic ignition. You could still rig up points to trigger, but it would be easier with a reluctor pickup. Just my $0.02.

 

[2door]

Jason, Jim,
Using the mag coil to produce the primary voltage would eliminate the high voltage arc across the points, just like old time auto ignition. The high volts, spark current, would be produced in the external coil. The points would only be required to carry 6, maybe 8 volts and very low amps so point life would be good. I don't see an external ignition coil in the Russian kit so they must have been relying on the internal mag to produce spark plug current which, as you said, could be tough on points. I'm not sure how they got away with it but they must have been doing something right. From my reasearch there's thousands and thousands of motorbikes being ridden daily in Russia for primary transportation. That being said, think about older lawn mower, or any small engine for that matter that relied on points and condenser ignition. They didn't use an external ignition coil and they ran for years with little or no trouble. Or am I talking thru my **s?

 

[jasonh]

The Russian motor does use an external coil.

RUSSIAN M21 INSTRUCTIONS

First row of small pictures.

Anyway, using the mag to make the primary voltage would still be fairly high. You basically generate voltage with the mag, and then would charge up a large capacitor (condenser) with that voltage. When the point closes all that juice gets sent through the point into the primary winding on the coil.

I think I got that one straight...I've read so much on ignitions.

Anyway, and a TAI (transistor assisted ignition) should give much better high-rpm performance than your old-school points-condenser ignition, and would not require retrofitting points in there. Basically the system would be charged up via the 12v output from the improved magneto. The stock coil can be used, or a new small coil would that would act as a reluctor pickup to sense when to fire the spark coil. When the signal from the pickup goes negative, a transistor allows the coil to fire.

This is probably the most common modern ignition.

 

[Creative Engineering]

Jason, Jim,
Using the mag coil to produce the primary voltage would eliminate the high voltage arc across the points, just like old time auto ignition. The high volts, spark current, would be produced in the external coil. The points would only be required to carry 6, maybe 8 volts and very low amps so point life would be good. I don't see an external ignition coil in the Russian kit so they must have been relying on the internal mag to produce spark plug current which, as you said, could be tough on points. I'm not sure how they got away with it but they must have been doing something right. From my reasearch there's thousands and thousands of motorbikes being ridden daily in Russia for primary transportation. That being said, think about older lawn mower, or any small engine for that matter that relied on points and condenser ignition. They didn't use an external ignition coil and they ran for years with little or no trouble. Or am I talking thru my **s?

Tom,

You're right: In a conventional points type ignition, the points are on the low voltage side of the system. The problem is in how to get it all inside the mag case. I think Jason is probably right in that it's going to have to be electronic.

If you go back and look at the Russian set-up you'll see that they did use an external coil.

Jim