White wire, headlight, elctrical stuff

[Creative Engineering]

I've been thinking about the white wire comments that I've read.

I haven't dismantled the coil in my sacrificial engine yet, but I assume that it's a coil within a coil. One for the ignition, and one as a tap for 6V power. I think this explains why, (depending on what is connected to the white wire), the ignition spark becomes weak.

How about a second coil directly across from the first? Coils are cheap, and easy, to make! This new coil could easily be wound to produce 12V and an adequate amount of current.

This would eliminate the inductance problems associated with a shared coil.

Maybe this week I will completely remake the entire coil assembly with the new one having a second coil. This might be a really nice upgrade that could be offered as a direct bolt-on.

I don't have a running bike right now...So I will need a local member who would be willing to bring thier bike in for a test. Anyone in the Tampa Bay area game? Don't worry I have plenty of spare electrical parts if I accidently let the smoke out of your ignition module.

Jim

 

[Finfan]

Sorry, I don't live in your area but I've worked a lot of years in electronics and I know that parts are just never the same once you let the smoke out of them!

 

[Creative Engineering]

Sorry, I don't live in your area but I've worked a lot of years in electronics and I know that parts are just never the same once you let the smoke out of them!

Finfan,

Does what I'm talking about make sense? I have only a limited knowledge of electronics.

It would seem to me that a secondary coil would be the way to go. A bridge rectifier could also be put together for the benefit of getting a DC output. Also cheap!

Jim

 

[Dave31]

I have had no luck getting a 12V system to work. I've tried many things...I got it to fire like for 2 seconds but now I got nothing. I burned something up and got frustrated and walked away and have not tried again.

FR31MB/Working on 12V system - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

 

[Dave31]

Here is some other stuff we have tried

http://motorbicycling.com/f13/beefed-up-ignition-647.html

 

[Creative Engineering]

Here is some other stuff we have tried

http://motorbicycling.com/f13/beefed-up-ignition-647.html

I looked through these posts, I wasn't thinking of trying to alter the ignition system. It seems to work fine as it is. I haven't had any trouble with spark.

My plan was to add a separate coil that would be a dedicated power source for a light. There's room inside the case...I think I'll try it.

Jim

 

[xPosTech]

Hi Jim

Most magneto fired engines used in garden tractors and riding lawnmowers use a separate set of magnets and coils. The magneto uses one (or two) large magnets to give a large pulse every revolution. The white wire tap on the mag pickup winding is always used to kill the ignition via grounding it.

The Chinese discovered it has voltage on it. If they used just some of that voltage it wouldn't kill the engine.

The alternator uses another set of many magnets spread around the flywheel to give many pulses (alternating current) that can be easily smoothed into direct current with rectifier/s (and capacitor/s).

It looks to me like the limiting factor is the size of the magnet rotor. That small rotor limits the speed of the magnets past the horseshoe shaped pickup (part of the core of the magneto). Exploiting all the extra room inside the magneto housing would seem to be the easiest and most cost effective way to go.

Using a larger rotor to increase the speed past the pickups and a heftier coil with two separate windings would likely work.

The core/pickup should extend to the very edges of the housing so the diameter of the rotor can be increased as much as possible. To keep from using new mounting holes (want this to be bolt-on?) a thinner rotor may be required to allow for a thin metal adapter to hold the coil/pickup.

DING (light bulb went on)
Another possibility is two separate coils. An additional coil opposite the one now. If (and I suspect they did) the Chinese used the cheapest magnets they could, the rotor could be recreated using rare earth magnets (plenty surplus from hard drives). That would increase the circuit efficiency. Continue the pickup into roughly a rectangle with a coil on the end next to the clutch actuator (which you so beautifully improved).

One coil to the ignition and one to the lights. Of course one coil would be bigger than the other due to space limitations. I think the smaller one next to the clutch could fire the ignition leaving the larger one for the lights, center tapped to enable a full wave rectifier/voltage regulator.

The two coil upgrade would just consist of a new rotor and pickup/coil assembly. Rare earth magnets will make it possible.

Just my first thoughts on this. I hope they're not too flawed.

Ted

 

[jasonh]

I'm currently in the conceptual design stage of making a full 12v electrical/ignition system for these motors.

yes, your assumptions are correct, the magneto is a coil within a coil. The inner coil is a heavier gauge than the outer coil.

You could probably fit an extra coil in there on the side, but I don't know if you'll be able to get enough wraps with a decent gauge wire to generate 12v. When you look at the stocker, I think the outer coil is for the white wire. That's A LOT of winds of a very thin wire just to generate 6v (unless I've got it backwards).

It's worth a shot, I'm just not sure if there is enough room for enough winds to get 12v with sufficient current. That's why I'm working on redoing the entire system.

Dang, as soon as I start working on something, 5 other people have to start working on the same thing

 

[Creative Engineering]

Hi Jim

DING (light bulb went on)
Another possibility is two separate coils. An additional coil opposite the one now. If (and I suspect they did) the Chinese used the cheapest magnets they could, the rotor could be recreated using rare earth magnets (plenty surplus from hard drives). That would increase the circuit efficiency. Continue the pickup into roughly a rectangle with a coil on the end next to the clutch actuator (which you so beautifully improved).

One coil to the ignition and one to the lights. Of course one coil would be bigger than the other due to space limitations. I think the smaller one next to the clutch could fire the ignition leaving the larger one for the lights, center tapped to enable a full wave rectifier/voltage regulator.

The two coil upgrade would just consist of a new rotor and pickup/coil assembly. Rare earth magnets will make it possible.

Just my first thoughts on this. I hope they're not too flawed.

Ted

Ted,

You're cracking me up.

You may not have read my first post, but you did read my mind.

This is exactly what I plan on doing...move the coil for the ignition to the actuator side, and wind a larger one for powered items.

Jim

 

[jasonh]

Ted,

You're cracking me up.

You may not have read my first post, but you did read my mind.

This is exactly what I plan on doing...move the coil for the ignition to the actuator side, and wind a larger one for powered items.

Jim

You're going to have to do something creative (no pun intended) with the ignition timing then.

 

[Creative Engineering]

I'm currently in the conceptual design stage of making a full 12v electrical/ignition system for these motors.

yes, your assumptions are correct, the magneto is a coil within a coil. The inner coil is a heavier gauge than the outer coil.

You could probably fit an extra coil in there on the side, but I don't know if you'll be able to get enough wraps with a decent gauge wire to generate 12v. When you look at the stocker, I think the outer coil is for the white wire. That's A LOT of winds of a very thin wire just to generate 6v (unless I've got it backwards).

It's worth a shot, I'm just not sure if there is enough room for enough winds to get 12v with sufficient current. That's why I'm working on redoing the entire system.

Dang, as soon as I start working on something, 5 other people have to start working on the same thing

Jason you may be right...I may not be able to fit a coil in the case that would produce 12V. That was totally off the cuff.

I am looking at this strictly from the standpoint of offering a minor upgrade. A second coil that can generate enough voltage and current to power a headlight, maybe a tail light too...without using the white wire.

I'm not planning on redoing the entire electrical system, so carry-on I won't be infringing on what you're doing.

Jim

 

[jasonh]

depending on the clearance between the magneto cover and the pedals, you may be able to shoehorn an axial-flux style alternator on top of the stock magneto system. I haven't had my kit installed in a long time, so I'm not sure of the clearance.

 

[Creative Engineering]

You're going to have to do something creative (no pun intended) with the ignition timing then.

Hmmm,

I'm looking at the magnet now...I think it would have to be broached the same number of degrees off TDC in the opposite clock position from the original key if the coil were positioned 180 degrees.

Now it's not a simple bolt on...I'll leave the ignition coil where it is. I could supply another magnet.

Jim

 

[jasonh]

Hmmm,

Now it's not a simple bolt on...

Jim

That's what I ran in to...and why I decided that I might as well go for gold and design a fully new system from the ground up. (our ignition is less than adequate at best)

 

[xPosTech]

If you're going to supply another magnet make it rare earth. They have 5 to 10 times the flux of a cheap magnet.

If you're going to supply another magnet in a replacement rotor it's a simple matter to key the timing 180°. Either cut the key slot 180° out or move the magnet 180°.

Still a simple bolt-on.

Ted

 

[Finfan]

Jim:
I never did much with AC power generation but I assume if you have the right number of windings cutting the magnetic field you should easily be able to get 12 V out. What the physical space requirements would be I do not know. Just remember they have not repealed the laws of thermodynamics so you cannot get out more than you put in. Put a load on this and the motor will have to work harder. In order to get DC voltage you will also need a rectifier. A lot of people have wondered about this white wire, perhaps you can be one of the few to actually do something with it! Good luck!

 

[Creative Engineering]

If you're going to supply another magnet make it rare earth. They have 5 to 10 times the flux of a cheap magnet.

If you're going to supply another magnet in a replacement rotor it's a simple matter to key the timing 180°. Either cut the key slot 180° out or move the magnet 180°.

Still a simple bolt-on.

Ted

I bought a pair of these MAGNETS a while back. They are crazy powerfull.

Jim

 

[Creative Engineering]

Finfan,

I'm going to give it a shot!

Jim

 

[Creative Engineering]

Jason,

I'm looking at this again: are you sure that the timing would be distrupted if the coil were positioned exactly 180 out?

It looks to me like it won't make any difference. The magnet has 2 poles.

Jim

 

[Creative Engineering]

Using another magnet I checked the orientation of the poles on the magneto.

I don't think it's going to make any difference.

Jim