3 speed Elgin Velocipede 1934

[silverbear]

Ron,
good reason for the confusion. I have three bikes going right now. The HS (hua shueng) is on the 50 Panther and uses the Qmatic transmission.

The Elgin of this thread is a happy time motor, a PK-80 with a pull start but no automatic clutch. When I have the doremi (money) I will purchase a shift kit from Sick Bike Parts. It will use a 3 speed internally geared rear hub.

The Indian tri-car is using a Villiars 98cc 2 stroke cast iron engine and will be a belt drive going to a big sheave attached to the rear wheel.

No thread for Dan's bike. Tinsmith is computer impaired or doesn't have the interest in computer stuff. He can build a killer bike and make things like nobody's business, but computer stuff isn't his thing. If we can talk his wife into sending me some photos I'll happily make up a little thread where he can give some explanations. What say, Dan?
SB

 

[harry76]

I vote YAY

 

[silverbear]

Here are a few more pictures. I haven't done anything more on this build but hope to lace up the new rear wheel tomorrow or Monday. If I have enough money at the end of the month I can order the shift kit and soon enough be fitting things up for a first ride next month.
SB

 

[Tinsmith]

What say Dan? Duh! Right on both counts as to my impairments and lack of interest in learning computer stuff. There are some (few) photos of the frame modification and what I have tried to do. I will get some help here and try to put them up on the forum. The last batch of pics of the mock-up of everything didn't turn out well at all. I think you were here that day SB and they didn't work for some reason. I do think there are some threads out there on stretching out a frame, but I don't recall who posted them. Anyway, I'll try to get a few pictures up today and we'll go from there. SB! One lane open on Rt 550. Dan

 

[silverbear]

What say Dan? Duh! Right on both counts as to my impairments and lack of interest in learning computer stuff. There are some (few) photos of the frame modification and what I have tried to do. I will get some help here and try to put them up on the forum. The last batch of pics of the mock-up of everything didn't turn out well at all. I think you were here that day SB and they didn't work for some reason. I do think there are some threads out there on stretching out a frame, but I don't recall who posted them. Anyway, I'll try to get a few pictures up today and we'll go from there. SB! One lane open on Rt 550. Dan

Good deal. I'll be watching for it.
SB

 

[silverbear]

Well, it has sure been awhile since I posted on this thread. I've been back in Minnesota two weeks now and pulled the Elgin out of the bike shed a couple of days ago. Like seeing an old friend again. I'm getting psyched about this build all over again.

First I should mention a few things which have happened since last summer. Dan finished his stretch Worksman and we shared a number of great Saturday rides through the winter in Maryland. My Panther got an engine transplant from the 50cc HS to the 99 Predator. Some difference. Dan and I did make a copper gas tank for the Indian Hiawatha and he helped me get started welding up a steel gas tank for the Panther.

Also during the course of the winter I picked up SBP shift kit parts from Cannonball2 and bought bottom bracket adapters from SBP so I can use a three piece crank set in an old bike designed for a one piece crank. Yesterday I did my first work on the bike since last summer by truing up the wheels and mounting them on the bike. I've also decided to make a light weight sidecar for the dog and will show the mounting setup I first used on a 39 Elgin two years ago.

Here are a few photos...

The copper piece is a prototype sidecar front mount I made for the 39 Elgin which burned up in a fire. I still have the mounting hardware and frame from that sidecar which was a modified bike trailer. If you look in the photos of the sidecar frame attached to the bike, the copper piece fits under the bottom bracket and bolts to the rear at the fender and up through where a side kickstand bolt will fit. The copper piece has a removable end cap so that when it has the sidecar attached the front arm from the sidecar slides onto the copper piece. I'll describe the rear mount later. I'll be making a new frame and mounting pieces from steel now that I'm learning how to weld. Steel will be much stronger and less expensive than copper.
(cont.)
SB

 

[silverbear]

At the upper right in the photos are the throttle and an old three speed shift grip which now have foam grips covered in hand stitched elk hide. Very comfy for beat up old hands. On a long ride the right grips make a difference. These also deaden vibration a good bit.

At the bottom right is the freewheel with chain ring and guard.

To the left is the bottom bracket adapter.

Far left is the jack shaft assembly Cannonball 2 made. It is designed to fit on the seat down tube. I was particularly interested in this setup since it will allow me to change the engine along the way if I wish. I keep seeing in my mind's eye a vintage 100cc Villiars midget which would look wonderful and sound good, too.
But for now it is the China girl.

I have yet to order pedal crank arms from SBP and BMX single speed chain. I'm now looking around for a three piece cartridge to use and determine from that what length cartrige I need to clear the engine (it has a pull starter on it) miss the SBP pipe and also be right for the sidecar frame. Once I know what will work I can order the appropriate length cartridge from SBP.

Now that I've had the opportunity to give the bike a fresh look I have some changes I want to make. I don't like the coffee can sized gas tank as it is disproportional. I'll save it for a trike or sell it to somebody who wants a jumbo behind the seat tank. On the other hand I wanted something bigger than a V8 tank so I may make a cylindrical tank out of copper next winter midway in size between juice can and coffee can and a bit longer. Copper would look good , I think.

I also don't like the seat as this particular harness leather is too stiff for comfort. I'll probably use elk hide again, Easy to work with, strong and comfortable.

Different handlebars are in order. Not sure yet just what.

Next up I'll tell you what I have in mind for the sidecar.
SB
SB

 

[silverbear]

I have made some progress on the Elgin project. The last photo shows the new gas tank I made for it. I think the juice can size looks much better than the bigger one. I made this one with a brass bung instead of copper. Much better. I'll use the big tank I removed on a trike. I also made a plate to fit under the rear rack so that my copper jewel lights are now mounted firmly. Center light will be for a running light and the outside two are for brakes and turn signals (once I figure out a turn signal switch and blinker). Lenses are made from stained glass faceted jewels. Lighting inside is 9 LED's per light.

I won a bid on ebay for an old baby buggy/carriage. It is in rough shape as a baby carriage but will serve my purposes well, I think. I paid $9.95 for the buggy and a whopping 91.00 to ship it. I had no idea it weighs 57 pounds without the wheels (I knew I wasn't going to use them, so asked that they and the handle get removed before shipping. The handle stayed on.) Ah well, when it is done it will be just right.

I set it on the sidecar frame so I can better visualize things and am happy with it's size. I can narrow up the sidecar frame four inches or so which will reduce the overall footprint on the road a bit. All of the undercarriage will be removed so that the body sits directly on the sidecar frame, greatly reducing the height. I think it will look great with the bike.

I'm not sure yet what paint it will get, maybe gray and black with either gray or black Naugahyde canopy and upholstery (or removable pads). The rounded front piece is bent, but looks like an easy fix. It is meant to roll up (as in the photo) to keep an infant from tumbling out or rolled down to act as a foot rest for a toddler. It will stay in the up position for a doggy sidecar. Canopy hardware is stout, as is the whole carriage, metal throughout.

Off to the dump today to look for a three piece bicycle pedal crank to mock things up and determine which bottom bracket cartridge I need to order from SBP... what width. Maybe the one I find will work.

I'm also working on the front fender support so that it will fit the Tomos fork. Originally the fender bolted to the underside of the Elgin fork. Now it needs to mount to the legs of the moped fork so it can ride up and down with the sprung legs of the fork. I made a support for that from a fender bracket shortened up and drilled for mounting to the legs. I'll show you in a photo later. I'm also mounting a copper jewel torpedo light for a front fender running light.

As it is the beginning of the month and I have a social security check, I'll be ordering a few last parts from SBP and then on to mechanical things. I'd sure like to get this bike on the road.
SB

 

[silverbear]

Forgot to attach the photos...
SB

 

[silverbear]

Curtis Fox sent me this photo of a baby buggy sidecar with a pedal bike. Proportions should be similar to mine. And here I thought I was thinking up something nobody had done yet. Same with the canoe sidecar... I later learned it had already been done by someone else. The only thing I've "invented" is the copper jewel light. Thanks for the photo, Curt.
SB

 

[RicksRides]

SB from what Ive seen bud youve created a number of pieces of art and besides first isnt nessicarily the best, keep up the good work love following your builds & hows the welding coming

 

[silverbear]

Rick,
Thank you for your kind words, sir. I don't know that I'm "artistic", but I like to make a bike appeal to my eye. If someone else likes it, too, then that's great.

I always liked this model frame from Elgin. They had a great designer back when... the same guy who designed the boy's Bluebird and Robin, both classics to die for. With this step through, the stroke of genius was the fender skirts. Those things are the cat's meow. They suggest motion, speed, waves of sonic vibration or something or other kind of spacey.

They are also a pain for anyone wanting to motorize one. The only way I could figure to do it without wrecking the fender skirts was to run the engine drive chain through a jackshaft to an SBP freewheel and use the pedal chain to a 3 speed rear hub. Whew. I think it will be worth it, though. Hope so anyway.

I will have to alter the chain guard so that the jackshaft chain can get to the freewheel from above. I have another already damaged from a fire burning the 39 same model Elgin, so will set this one aside as an original and use the damaged one. Underneath there will always be a 1934 Elgin which can be made original again. I'm really not wrecking this vintage bike, just playing with it. Ha!

One reason I painted the bike black was to de-feminize it. It helps, but there is no hiding the art deco, elegant lines. That's fine with me. An engine helps, too, of course. I don't worry about losing some vintage appeal with new stuff or a moped fork. I don't need to fuss over making it look vintage because it is vintage. 1934... I sometimes wonder who owned it and if by chance that person is still alive... and what would she think about what I'm doing to what was her bike? I'd like to think she'd approve.

Yesterday I sectioned the sidecar frame, making it four inches narrower. While I may make a new frame eventually and weld up a strong one, this one will do for mocking up and giving initial trial runs. I suspect it will be strong enough for a light sidecar as it is, but since something coming apart at speed would be a disaster, better safe than sorry.

I also removed about twenty pounds worth of sub structure from the carriage, but not all of it. I will use four nice mounting points that are ready made for bolting to the frame. Simple.

You asked about welding. Mostly I'm learning how much I need to learn, but I'm far enough along to make things stick together, which is what I will do today to the structure underneath. The buggy is designed to bounce around a little, I suppose to put wee Johnny to sleep while out for a stroll. A bouncing sidecar would make Aaniimoosh the Wonder Dog barf on the nice upholstery I'm considering. So, I'll get out the welder and zzzt a few spots to remove the bounce. Sure is a handy thing to have.

I've pretty well decided to paint the sidecar much like it is, but the dark blue will be black and the grey will match Naugahyde I'm ordering for the canopy and upholstery, "pewter grey". Two yards worth at $5.95 a yard and $12.00 to ship on ebay. My old green Viking sewing machine that I used to use for leather work will get dusted off, oiled up and give more yeoman's service in bringing this baby carriage into a new life as a sidecar. Fun stuff.

That's my summer workshop in the photo. A covered trailer to keep a bike in, the welder nice and dry and an air compressor. Old picnic table with a vice and a section of railroad iron to pound on for a work bench. It works for me. You really don't need a lot.
SB

 

[curtisfox]

Rick,
Thank you for your kind words, sir. I don't know that I'm "artistic", but I like to make a bike appeal to my eye. If someone else likes it, too, then that's great.

I always liked this model frame from Elgin. They had a great designer back when... the same guy who designed the boy's Bluebird and Robin, both classics to die for. With this step through, the stroke of genius was the fender skirts. Those things are the cat's meow. They suggest motion, speed, waves of sonic vibration or something or other kind of spacey.

They are also a pain for anyone wanting to motorize one. The only way I could figure to do it without wrecking the fender skirts was to run the engine drive chain through a jackshaft to an SBP freewheel and use the pedal chain to a 3 speed rear hub. Whew. I think it will be worth it, though. Hope so anyway.

I will have to alter the chain guard so that the jackshaft chain can get to the freewheel from above. I have another already damaged from a fire burning the 39 same model Elgin, so will set this one aside as an original and use the damaged one. Underneath there will always be a 1934 Elgin which can be made original again. I'm really not wrecking this vintage bike, just playing with it. Ha!

One reason I painted the bike black was to de-feminize it. It helps, but there is no hiding the art deco, elegant lines. That's fine with me. An engine helps, too, of course. I don't worry about losing some vintage appeal with new stuff or a moped fork. I don't need to fuss over making it look vintage because it is vintage. 1934... I sometimes wonder who owned it and if by chance that person is still alive... and what would she think about what I'm doing to what was her bike? I'd like to think she'd approve.

Yesterday I sectioned the sidecar frame, making it four inches narrower. While I may make a new frame eventually and weld up a strong one, this one will do for mocking up and giving initial trial runs. I suspect it will be strong enough for a light sidecar as it is, but since something coming apart at speed would be a disaster, better safe than sorry.

I also removed about twenty pounds worth of sub structure from the carriage, but not all of it. I will use four nice mounting points that are ready made for bolting to the frame. Simple.

You asked about welding. Mostly I'm learning how much I need to learn, but I'm far enough along to make things stick together, which is what I will do today to the structure underneath. The buggy is designed to bounce around a little, I suppose to put wee Johnny to sleep while out for a stroll. A bouncing sidecar would make Aaniimoosh the Wonder Dog barf on the nice upholstery I'm considering. So, I'll get out the welder and zzzt a few spots to remove the bounce. Sure is a handy thing to have.

I've pretty well decided to paint the sidecar much like it is, but the dark blue will be black and the grey will match Naugahyde I'm ordering for the canopy and upholstery, "pewter grey". Two yards worth at $5.95 a yard and $12.00 to ship on ebay. My old green Viking sewing machine that I used to use for leather work will get dusted off, oiled up and give more yeoman's service in bringing this baby carriage into a new life as a sidecar. Fun stuff.

That's my summer workshop in the photo. A covered trailer to keep a bike in, the welder nice and dry and an air compressor. Old picnic table with a vice and a section of railroad iron to pound on for a work bench. It works for me. You really don't need a lot.
SB

Thats a AWESOME buggy I like it. and now you and Steve can coppy the top bows for future builds if needed..............Curt

 

[silverbear]

Glad you like it, Curt. I know we first talked about finding a baby buggy canopy to use on the canoe sidecar a year ago... or was it two? It hadn't occurred to me that a whole buggy could be utilized.

I now have the buggy on the sidecar frame and hooked it up to the bike to see how things will look. I'll need to do some alterations on the front arm attachment and I am leaning more toward making a whole new frame later in the summer. This is good enough for now and will allow me to do a little more straightening of the sidecar body where it is bent, paint the side panels when it's convenient to do that and redo the canopy and cushions or upholstery, whatever it turns out to be. I'm thinking that a round vinyl window in the back would be nice, like some of the old cars had. Might help to make it look more like a sidecar than a baby buggy.

I'm also wondering at how high it is sitting. I could lower it more by several inches. Perhaps the weight lower would help with stability. This frame attachment is set up to flex on turns, so a lower center of gravity might be better. I had also not figured on it weighing as much as it does. With the frame it is probably 35 pounds or so and the dog is another 25 or 30... then add in a sack of groceries.

That's why it is good to do a mock up, so that you can see things more clearly, giving everything the long stare. Good enough for now. I know enough to know it will work as a sidecar. Next up is the mechanical stuff leading up to it running.
SB

 

[curtisfox]

It looks awesome the way it is but your right it would be better lower down for all practical reasions...............Curt

 

[fasteddy]

Wow, another score. That looks like a natural on the bike and sure recalls the days of the teens and 20's when that would have been a natural look for a sidecar.
I see what you mean by the mice having their way with the top.

I would lower it if it was mine. Being that high might make the handling just a little touchy when you have a load in it.

Tell me how big an area you have where the back window will go. I have some old parts hidden somewhere and I think there is an old buggy/car window from years ago that surfaces once in a while. I'll snag it next time it does and if it's not complete I'll call on someone who may have a reproduction one.
Haven't called him in a while and swapped stories so I can combine the two.

Steve.

 

[Cycoracer8]

Now thats turning out to be a very nice rig. I like your thinking.

 

[silverbear]

Thanks for the interest and nice comments.

Steve, I don't think a fixed window and frame of any kind will work, but thank you for the offer. I would center the round window in back and when the top is folded back (as it would be riding at speed since it would act as an air brake)... the fold comes midway at where the window would go, so it has to be flexible. I have a nice quality clear vinyl shower curtain which has been covering the Orphan moped and I figure to stitch that in. Should work.

I have ordered the Pewter Gray Naugahyde (2 yards worth) after conferring with my neighbor lady, Lois, who is a skilled quilter. She thought 2 yards would do it and leave enough for an upholstered pad inside. We also conferred about how to put it together (pretty much reversing how it will come apart). I'll be very patient and careful in taking all the seams apart and using the pieces for patterns. She thought it was a pretty cool project.

Yes, the sidecar body will get lowered and moved forward on the sidecar frame a few inches. I also need to do some repair work, aligning the body.

And I've been thinking about how I can leave the front attachment arm to flex or modify it to be rigid. Pretty easy to do, I think, so we'll see how it handles. You picture leaning into a curve as you would with a two wheeler, but don't think about how the sidecar might want to lean in on you at low speed and falling into the sidecar... ouch!. We'll see.

Yesterday morning I ordered the last few bits of shift hardware from SBP. By afternoon they had it shipped... that's customer service!

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how the engine kick starts with the shift kit. You can no longer bump start it due to the freewheel crank. So that got me thinking about how you could do the same thing with a different engine, say the 98cc Villiars Midget... low revving, easy to start (probably a good bit easier than the slant head China Girl). But that's another year and not this one. Harry76 has a midget for me, but the problem is in shipping it from Australia. $$$ Still, I think that's the right engine for this bike someday. Harry, save it for me, Mate!
In the meantime I'll have some fun with this one. Maybe I can get the Villiars next winter.
SB

 

[silverbear]

AZBill, Killercanuck & VeniceBikes assure me that isn't all that hard. Here's a link showing one being started.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=l4kRc58XSiE#t=37s

I see that it is a regular head with lower compression. Still, doesn't look all that hard. I can always change the head until the engine breaks in. I've got one somewheres in me stuff. Goona be cool havin' gears!
SB

 

[fasteddy]

I see what your saying about the window. It will need to fold when you put the top down and as small as the one I have is it will still be to big.
Maybe I can put it in the velocar roof.

Like the work area you built. Looks really great.

Steve.