Motorized vs. Electric
- Thread starter tmhays
- Start date
happyvalley
New Member
Speaking just about the motor, there is no comparison and why modern rail locomotives use them. An electric motor has a high output and flat torque curve across the rpm band from start-up. It can eliminate much of the need for gearing needed in ICE engines.
Electrical storage for mobile applications is another matter and the main obstacles currently in the way, overcoming weight and cost.
happyvalley
New Member
Sure, and we can add the multiple Chrysler and GM bailouts, massive infrastructure investment for building and maintaining the interstate highway system and the expenditures for military adventures securing the flow of oil abroad.
But on topic since the OP asked:
I mentioned the instant torque and power band characteristics of electric motors, not to mention they are almost noiseless.
Storage, IE: cost and weight are issues to overcome to produce range.
For fun read the 2011 Death Race thread here, won by a Ebike, lol.
Venice Motor Bikes
Custom Builder / Dealer/Los Angeles
I concur that electrics can be more powerful; but their problem is that they are at their strongest from the first second you go & they grudually loose power as you go.
The Death Race would have ended much differenty had it been a much longer race.
I was heavily into R/C car racing for many years; The nitro car 'A' main races are a one hour long race; the electric 'A' mains were only five minutes long!
Until the battery technology gets better, the electric vehicles won't be able to compete with the gas vehicles for long distance.
The Death Race would have ended much differenty had it been a much longer race.
I was heavily into R/C car racing for many years; The nitro car 'A' main races are a one hour long race; the electric 'A' mains were only five minutes long!
Until the battery technology gets better, the electric vehicles won't be able to compete with the gas vehicles for long distance.
Before running gas engines, I ran 72 vdc thru a front electric hub. Low end was good, but top speed was only 27 mph. Sadly, this was NOT fast enough to ride in traffic, and charging 80 lbs of batteries daily was labor-intense. So was removing & reinstalling the batteries AND carrying the bike and batteries up two flights of stairs.
My gas-powered commuter speeds to 40 mph+
fills up every eight days and keeps up with traffic. Upon arriving home, I push the bike up two flights of stairs. It is safe from the weather and thieves.
It is EXACTLY what I was looking for.
My gas-powered commuter speeds to 40 mph+
fills up every eight days and keeps up with traffic. Upon arriving home, I push the bike up two flights of stairs. It is safe from the weather and thieves.
It is EXACTLY what I was looking for.
gobigkahuna
New Member
Stupid question: How does the law view electric powered bicycles, the same as gas powered? One of the things I miss with my powered bike is that I can't (legally) ride on bike paths any more. Is it the same for electrically powered bikes?
happyvalley
New Member
Not stupid at all, rather one that is producing some contested discussion in legal forums. Floating around out there is the inclusion of E vehicles in a federal mandate for states vehicle code compliance.
As to bike paths, where I live they are many, used heavily by bikers and walking people as well, and are posted 'no motor vehicles allowed'.
Gas bikes will raise issues, even an EHO35 with additional muffling, and today everyone carries a cell phone and are not shy about making a call. I know. On a practical level though, the stealth of Ebikes doesn't seem to raise the same degree of ire.
Wm Holden
New Member
an ebike under 750 watts is a "Bicycle" in California.
a gas bike of 49cc or less is still a "bicycle" on the street...but banned from bike trails and pedestrian walk ways.
So while in those areas...I run electric...when headed off on streets..I run gas.
THAT is the reason for a trybrid bicycle.
as well redundant propulsion allows for great range without fear of being stranded. (baring catastrophic wheel or frame failure)
gobigkahuna
New Member
I did a bit of homework and it appears that in the US a bicycle with an electric motor of less than 750 watts and capable of speeds less than 20 mph on flat terrain is categorized as a "slow speed electric bicycle". HR 727 covers it if you want to look it up (I tried to attach a copy but it was too big). From that point, state law varies from state to state. I searched the North Carolina DMV website and google but didn't find anything definitive on the subject so I'm going to assume the NC law follows US law and that a "slow speed electric bicycle" is not included with mopeds and scooters... unless someone else can dig up something more definitive.
biknut
Well-Known Member
In my opinion an eBike with less than 750w would be legal to ride on any trail built with federal money, unless a local municipality or state has passed an ordinance against it. However passing such a law after the fact may require the state or municipality to refund some money back to the fed.
These federal laws about eBikes cover other kinds of electric vehicles too. Like Rascals, and Segway's. Here in downtown Dallas there's a place that sells guided tours using Segway's. The tour guide started taking the groups on the Katy trail. The city of Dallas told them they would have to stop riding the the trail because it's just for joggers, and bicycles. The tour operator went to city hall and informed the city that federal law allows vehicles such as Segways to operate on trails funded with federal dollars. The city backed down.
These federal laws about eBikes cover other kinds of electric vehicles too. Like Rascals, and Segway's. Here in downtown Dallas there's a place that sells guided tours using Segway's. The tour guide started taking the groups on the Katy trail. The city of Dallas told them they would have to stop riding the the trail because it's just for joggers, and bicycles. The tour operator went to city hall and informed the city that federal law allows vehicles such as Segways to operate on trails funded with federal dollars. The city backed down.
gobigkahuna
New Member
Here's a copy / paste of HR 727 which defines what a "Low-Speed Electric Bicycle" is. If anyone has any further documentation, especially for North Carolina, I'd love to see it.
Federal Electric Bicycle Law HR 727
SECTION 1. CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY ACT. The Consumer product Safety Act (15 U.S.C. 2051 et seq) is amended by added at the end of the following:
LOW-SPEED ELECTRIC BICYCLES
SEC. 38. (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, low-speed electric bicycles are consumer products within the meaning of section 3(a)(1) and shall be subject to the Commission regulations published at section 1500.18(a)(12) and part 1512 of title 16, Code of Federal Regulations.
(b) For the purpose of this section, the term `low-speed electric bicycle' means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.
To further protect the safety of consumers who ride low-speed electric bicycles, the Commission may promulgate new or amended requirements applicable to such vehicles as necessary and appropriate.
(d) This section shall supersede any State law or requirement with respect to low-speed electric bicycles to the extent that such State law or requirement is more stringent than the Federal law or requirements referred to in subsection (a).
wheelbender6
Well-Known Member
You are far less likely to get busted on an ebike on a multi-use trail than a gas powered bike. Electric assist rarely matches gas assist in range, but they have some big advantages. You can keep them inside your house/office/dorm. You can haul an ebike inside your SUV or hatchback without smelling fuel. An ebike stays cleaner and is less messy to own.
gobigkahuna
New Member
A ha! I just found a copy of Section 2 for the above HR 727 and it's IMO the most important part!
Federal Law trumps State Law, so this should mean, if I'm reading it correctly, that a Low Speed Electric Bicycle should not have the same requirements as a moped, scooter or motorcycle.
Edit: Just found this thread ( http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1518&start=0 ) which seems to indicate that they came to the same conclusion.
Federal Law trumps State Law, so this should mean, if I'm reading it correctly, that a Low Speed Electric Bicycle should not have the same requirements as a moped, scooter or motorcycle.
Edit: Just found this thread ( http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1518&start=0 ) which seems to indicate that they came to the same conclusion.
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happyvalley
New Member
I wonder how relevant CPSC definitions are and if they are outside the purview of homemade kit bikes? The CPSC oversees end user safety on sale and over-site of manufacturers but defers to individual state DOTs for usage legislation.
Also, this is interesting:
http://motorbicycling.com/f17/electric-bicycle-moped-30812.html
Also, this is interesting:
http://motorbicycling.com/f17/electric-bicycle-moped-30812.html
biknut
Well-Known Member
A lot of people fall for the "no motor vehicles allowed" mess. What's a motor vehicle defined as in your state is the question. A lot of people just assume if it has a motor, it must be a motor vehicle. Not so fast. In Texas and some other states, a motor vehicle has to be self propelled to be considered a motor vehicle. That lets out most China Girl's.
I try not to draw attention when riding city trails, but if it should happen that I get a citation for riding one, I'll be challanging that ticket in a heart beat.
They'll need to post the trail "No motor bicycles" to get my attention. No motor vehicles just means I can't drive my work truck down the trail.
I try not to draw attention when riding city trails, but if it should happen that I get a citation for riding one, I'll be challanging that ticket in a heart beat.
They'll need to post the trail "No motor bicycles" to get my attention. No motor vehicles just means I can't drive my work truck down the trail.