whats wrong... pls help...
- Thread starter virtuoso
- Start date
Venice Motor Bikes
Custom Builder / Dealer/Los Angeles
Don't use synthetic oil for the break in! (it works too well), & the engine won't break in as well as it should.
MotorBicycleRacing
Well-Known Member
Not using synthetic oil for break in is an old wives tale.
fatdaddy
New Member
Not using synthetic oil for break in is an old wives tale.
Old wives tales usually have a reason for getting started. Call me old fashioned but I'll never understand how you're getting enough lube on ALL the bearings that need it with less than half the oil in the fuel that you would use with a regular mix. More oil = more lubrication on the bearings. And It's REAL oil. Not something synthesized from soybeans or corn or WHATEVER.
I'm probably wrong about everything, BUT I've never had an engine burn up from lack of lube. Which is what the guy's engine kinda looks like happened to it. SO, I'm gonna keep on using regular cheapo wallyworld 2 stroke oil and run a little heavy with it. Like I said, I'm a little old fashioned.
fatdaddy.
Kioshk
Active Member
I'm with FatDaddy; although I'm unsure of the veracity of synthetic-oil resulting in a longer/incomplete break-in (the logic seems sound), I've been VERY happy with properly proportioned ashless 2-stroke oil that I get at Ace Hardware. I had been doing a 1:4 mix of castor about a year ago, but after not seeing a noticeable difference after staving-off, I'm sticking with my 25:1 mix, break-in and afters.
MotorBicycleRacing
Well-Known Member
A good article on oil by FFV8
http://ffv8.com/2-stroke-oils.html
Break in Oils
Some people claim that you can't break in an engine with synthetic oil,or castor oil. Nonsense. I can seat the rings on a KT100 running Amsoil Saber at 16:1 in a couple of laps.
Run what ever oil brand & ratio you plan to use in an engine from the very first start.
Fuel mixture is much more important. Run a little rich at first. Re-jet, use partial choke - whatever it takes to avoid running too lean on a fresh engine. This will reduce cylinder temperatures while helping to wash away the metal particles produced by ring seating.
There is a popular 2 stroke import engine out there with all sorts of break in recommendations. Extra oil, etc. The factory oil advise about 16:1 initially is ok, as long as you add fuel too. That engine is a low quality, inexpensive unit. I have measured cylinders at .005 or more out of round. Piston rings that only make contact at a few spots initially. No wonder they tell you 16:1 - the extra oil helps seal the rings! Running this engine at WOT with enough oil & fuel is the best way to seat the rings - and it will still take awhile..
http://ffv8.com/2-stroke-oils.html
Break in Oils
Some people claim that you can't break in an engine with synthetic oil,or castor oil. Nonsense. I can seat the rings on a KT100 running Amsoil Saber at 16:1 in a couple of laps.
Run what ever oil brand & ratio you plan to use in an engine from the very first start.
Fuel mixture is much more important. Run a little rich at first. Re-jet, use partial choke - whatever it takes to avoid running too lean on a fresh engine. This will reduce cylinder temperatures while helping to wash away the metal particles produced by ring seating.
There is a popular 2 stroke import engine out there with all sorts of break in recommendations. Extra oil, etc. The factory oil advise about 16:1 initially is ok, as long as you add fuel too. That engine is a low quality, inexpensive unit. I have measured cylinders at .005 or more out of round. Piston rings that only make contact at a few spots initially. No wonder they tell you 16:1 - the extra oil helps seal the rings! Running this engine at WOT with enough oil & fuel is the best way to seat the rings - and it will still take awhile..
mapbike
Well-Known Member
I always start my engine off with what I plan to run in them till they die, some oils such as Opti2 offer a higher level of lubrication than just a run of the mill 2 smoker oil and that isnt a just hype, its been proven and run in all types of 2 stroke engine from 50:1 - 100:1 for many years by rental companies and individuals like several of us here on the forum, all oils are not formulated equally and I do agree that the cheaper conventional oils should be run at ratios probably ranging from 25:1 to 40:1 at the most.
Lucas oil is a semi synthetic and is recommended to be run at 50:1, Lucasmakes great products and if they say its safe to run their oil at 50:1 Id trust it no problem in one of these CG engines.
I agree with Neil about the break in debate of whether synthetic should be used or not, yeah synthetic is a better lube than conventio al oil and it may take very slightly more run time for the rings to seat completely like they will with an oil that has a weaker film strength, but synthetic oil will not prevent rings from seating, man6 2 stroke engines come right out of the box nowadays with a bottle of semi synthetic oil for the first gallon of fuel to be run through the engine, just bought another chainsaw the other day and it came with a bottle of semi synthetic.
Another thing I agree with Neil on here is that fuel is what actually keeps an engine cool, not oil...... oil lubricates but getting enough fuel in that cylinder is crucial for keeping the temps down to a safe level, getting a proper jet size in the carb is very very important and I also recommend the engine be run a bit on the rich side for a tank or two before the final carb tune since an engine will get a bit hotter during the break in process since things createmore friction as they're wearing in.
Lucas oil is a semi synthetic and is recommended to be run at 50:1, Lucasmakes great products and if they say its safe to run their oil at 50:1 Id trust it no problem in one of these CG engines.
I agree with Neil about the break in debate of whether synthetic should be used or not, yeah synthetic is a better lube than conventio al oil and it may take very slightly more run time for the rings to seat completely like they will with an oil that has a weaker film strength, but synthetic oil will not prevent rings from seating, man6 2 stroke engines come right out of the box nowadays with a bottle of semi synthetic oil for the first gallon of fuel to be run through the engine, just bought another chainsaw the other day and it came with a bottle of semi synthetic.
Another thing I agree with Neil on here is that fuel is what actually keeps an engine cool, not oil...... oil lubricates but getting enough fuel in that cylinder is crucial for keeping the temps down to a safe level, getting a proper jet size in the carb is very very important and I also recommend the engine be run a bit on the rich side for a tank or two before the final carb tune since an engine will get a bit hotter during the break in process since things createmore friction as they're wearing in.
boxcar
New Member
All this is good reading and advice.
I use semi synthetic for break in as well.
But for God's sake take the acorn head nuts off of your new engine and throw them away......
Replace with non acorn hardened nuts.
You will now have a head that will torque down correctly and stay that way .....
I have a feeling that this was the cause of your failure .....
I use semi synthetic for break in as well.
But for God's sake take the acorn head nuts off of your new engine and throw them away......
Replace with non acorn hardened nuts.
You will now have a head that will torque down correctly and stay that way .....
I have a feeling that this was the cause of your failure .....
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MotorBicycleRacing
Well-Known Member
read http://ffv8.com/2-stroke-oils.html
breaking in a 2 stroke engine.
Any engine with piston rings takes a little time to fully seat the rings. Once the compression rings are making full contact with the bore, a 2 stroke is good to go.
Most professional engine builders agree that short runs at full throttle are the best way to seat the rings.
Cylinder pressure forces the rings in to contact with the bore.
Higher cylinder pressures happen when the engine is working harder.
Why "break -in" at all?
Good question. Stihl, Husqvarna, Poulan, Ryobi & Homelite make millions of units each year. None of them come with highly detailed instructions to break them in gently, or use more oil. A new chainsaw comes out of the box, and goes right to work at 10,000 RPM & full load on the cutting chain. A 2 stroke race bike rolls off the trailer with a fresh top end - and goes WOT across the desert through the gears.
There are some things to avoid with a mixed fuel 2 stroke engine:
Excessive idling. Little to no cylinder pressure, and reduced fuel / oil flow per revolution. On a motorcycle, you also lose cooling air flow.
Engine braking. Pull that clutch in on long downhill runs. High crankshaft speeds with the throttle closed starves the engine for oil. Engine braking with a 2 stroke is best done with a compression release, and the throttle wide open.
I certainly agree. The chrome acorn nuts have been a source of problems for a long time. Inconsistant stud length is part of the problem as well as bad threads in the nuts themselves. The nuts can tighten down on the studs before applying proper pressure to the cylinder head thereby promoting head gasket leaks/failure. Studs that aren't threaded into the case far enough can contribute to the problem too.
If the nuts are tightened onto a stud that has more exposed thread than the nut can handle the stud threads can be damaged.
Keep the acorn nuts for slingshot ammo and replace them with hex nuts. I like shouldered/flanged nuts but that's just personal preference. Regular hex nuts work just as well.
Use a torque wrench. 120 to 140, some say 160 inch pounds and tighten the nuts in a 'X' pattern. After a couple of heat cool cycles check the torque again but don't exceed the values given above. You'll also want to lap the cylinder head gasket surface for a good seal.
Tom
If the nuts are tightened onto a stud that has more exposed thread than the nut can handle the stud threads can be damaged.
Keep the acorn nuts for slingshot ammo and replace them with hex nuts. I like shouldered/flanged nuts but that's just personal preference. Regular hex nuts work just as well.
Use a torque wrench. 120 to 140, some say 160 inch pounds and tighten the nuts in a 'X' pattern. After a couple of heat cool cycles check the torque again but don't exceed the values given above. You'll also want to lap the cylinder head gasket surface for a good seal.
Tom
mapbike
Well-Known Member
"Why "break -in" at all?
Good question. Stihl, Husqvarna, Poulan, Ryobi & Homelite make millions of units each year. None of them come with highly detailed instructions to break them in gently, or use more oil. A new chainsaw comes out of the box, and goes right to work at 10,000 RPM & full load on the cutting chain. A 2 stroke race bike rolls off the trailer with a fresh top end - and goes WOT across the desert through the gears"
I've always said the same thing, I dont hate on people for running an engine how they feel comfortable, but just good common sense says all the TLC on the CG engines isnt warranted honestly, either you get a good one or you dont, but then again that has just been my personal experience and may not be the same for everyone.
Good question. Stihl, Husqvarna, Poulan, Ryobi & Homelite make millions of units each year. None of them come with highly detailed instructions to break them in gently, or use more oil. A new chainsaw comes out of the box, and goes right to work at 10,000 RPM & full load on the cutting chain. A 2 stroke race bike rolls off the trailer with a fresh top end - and goes WOT across the desert through the gears"
I've always said the same thing, I dont hate on people for running an engine how they feel comfortable, but just good common sense says all the TLC on the CG engines isnt warranted honestly, either you get a good one or you dont, but then again that has just been my personal experience and may not be the same for everyone.
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fatdaddy
New Member
Yer NEVER gonna get everybody to agree on what oil is best. Whatever one you decide on, RUN IT HEAVY for break in. I run 32 to1 everyday, that's 4oz per gallon of regular cheapo 2 stroke oil. for break in I'll run 4 1/2 or even 5oz per gallon. TOO much oil WILL NOT harm your engine. Just to find out what would happen on a cheapo boygofast engine I ran 8 oz (yeah, eight oz,) per gallon and the darned thing ran just fine. I figured a BGF engine needed all the help it could get. So I gave it all the oil would eat. Very little smoke and it broke in great. Turned out to be one of those 40mph engines. I named the bike ZIPPY.
fatdaddy.
fatdaddy.
fatdaddy
New Member
because THEY ARE cheaply made a break in period is recommended. All those brands you mentioned are very high quality compared to a dirty little China girl.
fatdaddy.
virtuoso
New Member
Thanks Tom.. Good info, I'm just going to stick to Lucas semi, for break in and till death do us part... Thanks guys this thread was helpful and ibet it will be helpful for those in the future... Lesson learned: When ur late for work, just accept being late, DO NOT WOT down a giant hill trying to make it there faster...
fatdaddy
New Member
The reason ya wanna get rid of those nuts is because they don't always allow the head to be tightened properly. the studs can hit the top inside of the nut and wont tighten any more and that can make for a head that wont torque down. Then It'll blow a head gasket. I was Re-reading and noticed no one answered that question for ya. I've sometimes ground the top off of the acorn nuts, I've also had the tops POP OFF when torqueing them down. the best way is to just buy good nuts.
fatdaddy.
mapbike
Well-Known Member
because THEY ARE cheaply made a break in period is recommended. All those brands you mentioned are very high quality compared to a dirty little China girl.
fatdaddy.
Oh yeah big difference in quality between a china girl and a top notch engine for sure, I still think it comes down to whether someone gets a good china girl to start with or not, if crank and bearings arw good and the bore is honed properly and straight, Im gonna venture to say you can run it full out from day one on whatever quality oil you want and it will be fine and continue to be a good engine.
If the crank is very untrue, bearing are rough and marginal quality from day one, it peobably isnt gonna make much difference how you run the engine or what oil/fuel mix is used in it because its gonna give up the ghost on you in a short amount of time.
The main thing that has to be done no matter what mix ratio is used is that the carb must be tuned right for the mix, if not it doesnt matter if there is 10-12oz of oil in a gallon of gas, the engine can still be fried and overheated from a lean run condition since oil lu ricates but fuel keeps it cool, to much air and not enough gas and the engine is gonna cook no matter how much oil is in the mix and that is the main point I try to stress to noobs who dont u derstand 2 smokers.
People like myself and you Red understand these things and we can run all sorts of different oils and mixes without having trouble ecause we do it right, but some people dont have this knowledge and so I just try to make it clear that jetting the carb properly is key to reliability if all else is right.
And as I said earlier I have nothing against someone doing whatever kind of break in period or technique they ceel comfortable with, it wont hurt a thing to mix a rich oil mix and run it below full bore for a while as long as the carb is tuned for that mix.
No disagreement here from me at all, just my person $0.02 NOT contradicting anyone or their methods, if it works I say do it, thats why I do mine the way I do, it has always worked for me.
fatdaddy
New Member
Tommysfast
New Member
Spark plug problem I got it running without deadswitch couldn't shut it off so pulled spark plug wire now won't start checked for spark there's none is spark plug cdi bad ?