The Real Deal on California Law.

[fatdaddy]

[/QUOT•Section 406(b) VC refers to a motorized bicycle as a device that has fully operative pedals for propulsion by human power and has an electric motor that: ◦Has a power output of not more than 1,000 watts;
◦Is incapable of propelling the device at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour on level ground; and
◦Is incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power is used to propel the motorized bicycle faster than 20 miles per hour.
E]

[Motorized Bicycles (Section 406(b) VC) - A bicycle helmet meeting the standards of either the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) or the United States Consumer Product Safety Commission (SPSC) must be worn to operator a motorized bicycle. /QUOTE]

The motor has a speed limit of 20mph. You can pedal faster than 20mph and roll down a hill and pedal faster any day of the week all day long etc.



I was looking at electric assist and figured that I would be in between 3000 to 5000 dollars to have one of the uper end systems with two batteries. The lower pricesed setups will overheat going up a hill or the cheap controller will allow your batteries to fry. The cheap batteries weigh to much. Even with the better systems the wholle thing will wegh more than my Simple Simon friction drive.

("The motor has a speed limit of 20mph. You can pedal faster than 20mph and roll down a hill and pedal faster any day of the week all day long etc.")

Kinda.
As long as you have the motor engaged then 20mph is the top speed allowed on an electric bike, downhill, peddling or a stiff wind pushing you. When you get pulled over for doing 30mph on a electric you can try that story on a judge. Good luck. Now if you want to disengage the motor and peddle past 20mph, I don't think there's a law against that. But then you would somehow have to prove to a cop that the motor was not engaged. And how would a cop know anyway if yer just "fake peddling" on a electric, He would just assume that you were riding a motorized bike past the allowed speed limit. I'm just saying, That IS the law. If you disagree, PLEASE show me in the CVC where it says it's OK to pass 20mph on a electric bike as long as you're going downhill.
fatdaddy.

 

[Mike B]

You can, it's just now in the catagory where you have to have a license, registration and wear the clunky DOT helmet.

Just like gas bikes.

 

[fatdaddy]

You can, it's just now in the catagory where you have to have a license, registration and wear the clunky DOT helmet.

Just like gas bikes.

You CAN what Mike? Not trying to be an a** here, but if you claim something then ya gotta show the codes and sections. If you mean it's OK for a electric bike to do over 20mph (if it's going downhill) then ya gotta show the law to back it up. CVC 406 has "downhill" nowhere in it.
And the license, registration and helmet laws have been on the books for a while now.
License required, CVC 12500, 2005 (7 years)
Helmet required, CVC 27803, 1992 (20 years)
Registration required, CVC 5037, 1981 (31 years)
If yer talking electric bikes then they are exempt from DL and reg. requirments,(CVC 24016 (b) (3). I think because it's only supposed to do 20mph. Still gotta have a helmet though.
California was one of the last hold outs on the helmet laws, but the feds threatened to cut off highway funding for non compliance.
And I remember riding mopeds around all the time, It came as a suprise to me that now ya gotta have a license for them.
And you know the feds and DMV. They ain't gonna let anything on the street with a motor without paying some kind of fee.
Know the law, Show the law. Thats what this thread is all about.
fatdaddy.

 

[reb1]

406 A is for the gas jobs with fully operational pedals and electric without pedals and the motor by itself can not power you over 30mph on the flat.
406 B is for fully operational pedals on electric and this set of laws is governed by the CSPC You know the people who are in charge of toys and are safety. The statement when pedaling faster than 20mph the motor can not be used to increase your speed is a motor limit not your legs. This a yes you can use your legs to go faster not a no. This the original intent of the CPSC law and the state of CA is going along with it.

Don't get confused here. There are two different types of motorized bicycles. Section A and B of 406 are not mixed at all.

There is a motor only speed limit for flat ground. The electrics can be governed with electronics for there motor speed. The gas jobs can be governed by gear ratios. There is and has never been a law that does not allow you to pedal on the flat or down a hill faster than the motor is allowed or capable of running in the state of CA, as long as you obey the speed limit of the road or the basic speed law. Neither can they legally tell you your legs need to be moving or they will impose some fine that does not apply. Yes it is possible that some LEO will misquote or impose the law to suit there personal opinion. I seriously doubt that you wil attract the attention of a LEO on an electric coasting down a hill at 30mph or the same going down a hill on my Simple Simon with a 7/8 friction roller.

 

[Mike B]

Again, ebikes have an advantage,

From CHP;

What is a moped or motorized bicycle?

•There are two types of motorized bicycles, defined in the California Vehicle Code (VC) Sections 406(a) and 406(b).
•Section 406(a) VC refers to a moped or motorized bicycle as any two or three wheeled device having fully operative pedals for propulsion by human power, or having no pedals if powered solely by electrical energy, has an automatic transmission, and a motor which produces less than 2 gross brake horespower and is capable of propelling the device at a maximum speed of not more than 30 miles per hour on level ground.
•Section 406(b) VC refers to a motorized bicycle as a device that has fully operative pedals for propulsion by human power and has an electric motor that:
◦Has a power output of not more than 1,000 watts;
◦Is incapable of propelling the device at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour on level ground; and
◦Is incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power is used to propel the motorized bicycle faster than 20 miles per hour.


Source - http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/motors.html

This means that the laws for gas bikes and ebikes are the same for the higher powered ebikes. Except for ebikes pedals are optional - I plan to make use of this option with my e-minibike build.

EBikes Rock!

 

[fatdaddy]

If ya take the peddles off yer electric bike then you're right. MOST people leave the peddles on for the simple fact that, sooner or later, you're gonna have to peddle it home. BUT, if you take off the peddles it falls under 406 (a) and then requires license and registration. Part of the reason people use electrics is for the lesser restrictions regarding this. And yes, if you take the peddles off you're allowed 30mph, downhill or not. BUT, a speed limit is a speed limit, and there is a speed limit imposed on both.(downhill or not.)
Do you really think that if you're in a 65mph speed zone you can do 65mph on your motorized just because it's downhill.( It's OK officer, I was going downhill.) By your reasoning there is NO speed limit imposed on a motorized bike.
So, it'll go something like this.... Well yer honer, ya see, I was going downhill with the wind pushing me, I was peddling real fast and it was a REALLY smooth road and the posted speed limit was 65mph, ect, ect. ect.
Good luck with that bro.
fatdaddy.

 

[Mike B]

You don't have to take the pedals off. Pedals are optional with an electric.

They are not optional with a gas bike.

 

[fatdaddy]

Again, ebikes have an advantage,

From CHP;

What is a moped or motorized bicycle?

•There are two types of motorized bicycles, defined in the California Vehicle Code (VC) Sections 406(a) and 406(b).
•Section 406(a) VC refers to a moped or motorized bicycle as any two or three wheeled device having fully operative pedals for propulsion by human power, or having no pedals if powered solely by electrical energy, has an automatic transmission, and a motor which produces less than 2 gross brake horespower and is capable of propelling the device at a maximum speed of not more than 30 miles per hour on level ground.
•Section 406(b) VC refers to a motorized bicycle as a device that has fully operative pedals for propulsion by human power and has an electric motor that:
◦Has a power output of not more than 1,000 watts;
◦Is incapable of propelling the device at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour on level ground; and
◦Is incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power is used to propel the motorized bicycle faster than 20 miles per hour.


Source - http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/motors.html

This means that the laws for gas bikes and ebikes are the same for the higher powered ebikes. Except for ebikes pedals are optional - I plan to make use of this option with my e-minibike build.

EBikes Rock!

Mike, You can still only use no more than 1,000 watts of electrical power. And I think a e-minibike would be the coolest. Like it say's, "ANY two or three wheeled device", ect. But, like I just posted for reb1, if you have NO PEDDLES then it falls under 406 (a) and requires license and registration.
fatdaddy.
OK, The "no peddles" electric can put out 2 GBH, Same as a gas bike. I don't know how many watts that would be.
EDIT, AGAIN: I just looked it up. One HP= 746 watts. So a 1500 watt (or so) elec. motor would be cool on a no peddle electric.

 

[Mike B]

2 HP is 1.5 KW

 

[fatdaddy]

2 HP is 1.5 KW

Thanks Mike. I'm into the gassers so I'm not up on the terminology regarding electrics. I googled it to wikipedia and came up with 746 watts= 1 HP.
I'm glad this thread came alive again. This old dog can still learn a new trick once in a while.
fatdaddy.

 

[showcaller]

Oy Vey (That would be yiddish for "are some folks really going to continue to beat this dead horse????")

As so many folks have already posted, pretty much everything you need to know is on the first page of this thread.

Let me summerize:

1. Get a M1 or M2 license.(It's not that difficult - REALLY!)
2. Get a real helmet (DOT approved)
3. Register it, it's only like $19.00 (One time fee)
4. Put on some cheap lights and reflectors, a horn if you really want to A - Okay (unless
you do serious night riding - then it is a whole other story.)

I wave to cops and if it is a motorcycle cop next to me at a red light I tell him that no matter how much he wants my bike I am not going to trade him for his BMW! Usually they laugh and that is the last I see of them.

Be safe, be sane, and ride like everyone around you doesn't see you but don't be paranoid about it.

Showcaller

 

[reb1]

The reason that the law specifically specifies a speed limit on the motor is so you can still use the motorized bicycle as a bicycle and pedal. This is a power limit of the motor only. This is not a speed limit. On electric CA goes along with the intent of the CPSC and allows this by the very words of the law. The same on a gas motor which is the intent of the fed. Even though I can I rarly roll down a steep grade over 35 or 40. Just because the law gives a flat ground speed limit for the motor does not mean you can not use gravity or wind without the motor to go faster. Most people are getting in trouble with the law because of no helmet. The next attention getter is no lights and a disreguard for traffic lights and stop signs.
I have not seen someone on a motorized bicycle with a gas job obeying the speed limit on flat ground in my neighborhood yet. Because there are only two of them I believe they are an insignificent thing to the police at this time. My 7/8" friction roller with the centriffugal clutch is for going up hill not down. I will roll down hill around 35 and less with a cart full of groceries. If they give me a ticket I will use my laywer to deal with with it. I do not use a car anymore and am about ready to burn my DL and live in a free country.

 

[fatdaddy]

Yer right showcaller, And I don't REALLY care how fast someone else is riding. And as I've said before, My bike hits over 35mph. But I guess some people will twist the law any way they can, and there's no changing their minds. NO ONE has shown me a Vehicle code that allows a MB to exceed the specified limits, so I give up. PLEASE, lets move on to something else. We ARE, as showcaller states, "beating a dead horse" and going in circles.
Another subject anyone?
fatdaddy.
P.S. The CPSC only regulates the safety of the product, (i.e. Will it fall apart and kill you.) It has nothing to do with the CVC.

 

[bairdco]

i hate the cpsc. they banned lawndarts. i mean, only 2 kids died from severe head trauma. trampolines have killed, maimed, and just plain messed up way more kds than that, and they didn't ban those...

 

[fatdaddy]

i hate the cpsc. they banned lawndarts. i mean, only 2 kids died from severe head trauma. trampolines have killed, maimed, and just plain messed up way more kds than that, and they didn't ban those...

And they had a little to do with writing the helmet laws, mostly in a advisory capacity. I just thought it weird that reb1 thinks they have something to do with MB laws and the CVC, Then didn't quote any codes or sections to back his claim. I was raised in Kansas, right next door to Missouri, the SHOW ME STATE. So show me is all I ask.
fatdaddy.

 

[reb1]

California vehicle codes come from the uniform Vehicle code at the Federal level. They are required to follow it failry close so they conform to the rest of the US. This is the reason you can drive an automobile in most states and not worry about disobeying some unknown law that will put you in jail. When it comes to motorized bicycles this is not the case and you can end up in jail quite easily because of the special treatment these government types insist on giving us. The fed turned control of the law on electric assist bicycles over to the CPSC. Bush signed the bill in 2002. California also follows this fairly close. Ca and Oregon are in violation of the law by allowing a larger watt motor than the CPSC allows. I would not worry to much about this because these are the same people who told all fifty states to get rid of there bicycle light regs because there reflectors were the standard. The states ignored the CPSC on this law and kept there light requirements. As far as twisting the law goes I don't need to there is plenty of twist already.

http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/frnotices/fr03/low.html

 

[fatdaddy]

OH-MY-GAWD, reb1 FINALLY came up with a real document. (Thats all I ever asked.) It seems the CPSC is TRYING to regulate electric bikes,(and electric bikes with peddles and 750 watts only.) They did this in 2002. The problem I found with this is that it follows very closely the Vehicle Codes already in place, CVC sec. 406, (1995) and went into effect in 1996. The ONLY difference was that the CPSC say's "LESS" than 20mph and the CVC says "NOT MORE" than 20mph. You said "California follows this pretty close". Well, no, The CPSC followed California "pretty close".( 1995 Vs. 2002.) Thats not passing a law, Thats simply comfirming whats already there, And too late at that. Seven years AFTER there was already a law.
This only proves that the CPSC runs more on politics than concern over the safety of the products it covers. I think bairdco came up with the perfect example of this, (post#438.) They GOTTA DO SOMETHING cause they don't wanna look stupid, (Too late.) The only GOOD that came out of the CPSC ruling is that it made the law, (That MOST states have already,) apply equally through out the U.S. The other side of this is that the CPSC has no police of their own to enforce these rulings, and the feds (FBI?, Really?) very rarely jump into State business. It would have to be a VERY POLITICALY charged topic for them to do so.(See,politics again,not safety concerns.) My case in point is the Fed pot laws Vs. California pot laws. The politicly charged "killer Weed" issue MIGHT force them to jump in. They don't really want to, but they may recieve way too much "political" pressure over it.
So, to summerize,
1. The CPSC covers E-bikes with peddles only.
2. The CPSC did not write a law, only took the text (very closely) from 406. or laws from other states.
3. They did this in 2002, seven years AFTER their were already laws in place.
4. The CPSC is NOT really concerned with your safety and is more motivated by politics then anything else.
5. The CPSC has no real way to enforce their regulations. You admit this yourself.(Ca. WILL enforce the CVC,) So, in California at least, (thats what we're talking about, right?) The ONLY law you have to go by are the California Vehicle Codes.
6. So SC**W the CPSC.
Big Red.
P.S. Try showing the CPSC ruling to a California cop next time you get pulled over. I think when he's through laughing you're still getting a ticket.

 

[reb1]

The CPSC is its own job security and a political nightmare. You are correct in stating that there decisions are politically motivated. They are the reason that we do not have lights pre installed on every new bicycle. There reflector requirement is a nee jerk reaction to the BMA lobbying so they did not need to sell lights on every new bicycle like they do in many other countries. I believe that just like automobiles we should have all the basic laws the same in all fifty states, for motorized bicycles gas or electric. There are currently no states or cities that tell you that automobiles are outlawed on there streets. This should be the same for us. 20mph is a cruel joke. 30 or 35 with a regular bicycle helmet and no DOT crap would be more factual than what they want.

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

I believe that just like automobiles we should have all the basic laws the same in all fifty states, for motorized bicycles gas or electric. There are currently no states or cities that tell you that automobiles are outlawed on there streets. This should be the same for us. 20mph is a cruel joke. 30 or 35 with a regular bicycle helmet and no DOT crap would be more factual than what they want.

Be careful what you wish for because the same laws may mean that
motorized bicycles are illegal in all 50 states.

Automobiles and even motorcycles, and bicycles will never be banned
because they have very strong lobbying organizations.
but a tiny fringe segment of the population like us could very easily be
banned or regulated out of existence.
Regulations banning home built motorized bicycles could happen and only
allow factory built and approved bikes.

 

[fatdaddy]

Ya hit the nail on the head this time reb. For once I agree with everything you said. But like MotorBicycleRacing said, Be carefull what you wish for.
fatdaddy.