Ripped Out a Spoke ?

Discussion in 'Motorized Bicycle General Discussion' started by Wheel Rush, Jul 13, 2008.

  1. Wheel Rush

    Wheel Rush New Member

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    Looks like I paid the price for finally getting the wobble out of the wheel, After several adjustments, (I'm new at alignment), I got the wheel straight, but, apparently lost track of turns to this and turns to that, . . the bike never ran better, I now have the engine pretty well broke in, and I noticed immediately smooth ride, and ample performance, so after a clutch adjustment, I took it out a second time, first time about five minutes second time about four, rounding the corner on the block coming home and POP !, I was sure it was the chain, looking at it I noticed nothing wrong, but spotted the spoke, ripped out !

    Now there seems to be a rise or pucker where it came out,

    I'm wondering can I tap in the pucker and put in a new spoke or what ?

    Has this ever happened to anyone ?
     
    #1 Wheel Rush, Jul 13, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2008
  2. Dave31

    Dave31 Moderator
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  3. Wheel Rush

    Wheel Rush New Member

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    OK,
    It won't help a lot just to see how to replace a broken spoke but thanks anyway, I just received word fro Sears about K-Mart and I think I can get a new wheel, but I sure would like to know more about this !

    I guess its possible it may have been over-tightened, however it was only to straighten the wheel, it is also possible concerning the quality of the wheel that the wobble overwhelmed the situation and or I may have inadvertently worsened the wobble as I went along only to correct it by over-tightening this particular spoke,

    The only way you or I will ever Know, would be to go back and look at each spoke and do a thread measurement with the tire off, this I am afraid, I probably will not do, it has been a rather tiresome ordeal, but I did get that fantastic short lived ride and I'll be up and running again in a day or two.

    Thanks again.
     
  4. Wheel Rush

    Wheel Rush New Member

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    What I can use is some information regarding changing the Chain sprocket, about the pads, they get pretty well compressed, will it be all right to re-use them ?
     
  5. misteright1_99

    misteright1_99 New Member

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    Yea you can reuse pads. I have changed my sprocket for different sizes 3 or 4 times now. When you get the new wheek I would suggest wire tieing spokes together....
     
  6. Wheel Rush

    Wheel Rush New Member

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    Hey Misteright,

    I have also just found out that K-mart, will give me a new bike but not a new tire, so I'm inquiring fro Sears to see if, we can negotiate, the original problem concerning the, replacement was not the spoke, but a defect found in the rim, where the weld seem is.

    That was when I summond them through the e-mail and started the process.

    So now, with motor mounted on bike it will be a little difficult to take it back for a new one, even if it is a replacement.

    I wondering how much of a problem fixing the, "popped spoke"
    would be.

    I read a little about it, but, "popped spokes", are mainly a problem with the spoke popping of at the threads, in my case the whole rim spoke assembly just made a hole and ripped out, leaving a pucker. I still can not find anyone who has dealt with this.

    My apologies for buying a hundred dollar bike, as I am also finding out by hints it can be the quality of the rim,
    plus the load on the spokes from the chain sprocket assembly, then the re-alignment from that, so what can you expect from a pedal bike that only cost a hundred dollars, I don't think it was built for an engine, where I am sure the wheel at the time was bearing some torque.

    What do you mean, " wire tieing the spokes " ?
     
    #6 Wheel Rush, Jul 13, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2008
  7. misteright1_99

    misteright1_99 New Member

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    Hey Wheel my bike was $50. from Target LOL... Just takes maintenance. I already replaced the wheel bearings in the rear wheel, with under 100 miles. I dont believe price has much to do with it, a bicycle is not meant to be motorized. Where my spokes cross on the rear wheel I wire tied them together. It strenghtens them by supporting them by each other, and if one should pop, the ties keep them from going anywhere, such as into the chain. Some people use wire, or ties, or whatever....I would go get the new wheel if they are offering it. I have seen many members with out of true wheels brand new....


    http://motorbicycling.com/f31/how-tie-spokes-780.html
     
    #7 misteright1_99, Jul 13, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2008
  8. Wheel Rush

    Wheel Rush New Member

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    misterright1_99

    Couple questions, . .

    Not sure what I'm gonna do yet, but I am gathering I should have the hub and spoke specs are they hidden somewhere on the bike where I can find them ?

    Also, whats it like to need to replace wheel bearings, I mean what happens, when you know there going, and could it be prevented ?
     
  9. Wheel Rush

    Wheel Rush New Member

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    I found the Model and Serial #, I am assuming the rest can be located from these ?

    Also, I've found wheel bearing information here, but how did one burn out so quickly ?
     
    #9 Wheel Rush, Jul 14, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2008
  10. Bikeguy Joe

    Bikeguy Joe Godfather of Motorized Bicycles

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    I use zip ties on the spokes, wheel bearing grease (red) in the wheels. You'll know when a bearing is going if you check ALL parts of your bike OFTEN.

    It will manifest itself as a rumbling, loosening wheel.
     
  11. misteright1_99

    misteright1_99 New Member

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    Bicycles were not meant to have motors, or ride 20 miles at 25 mph.......
     
  12. Wheel Rush

    Wheel Rush New Member

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    Huffy will replace wheel, it's on order, meanwhile I went to the local Bike rental here, and the guy said, he has seen spokes, ripp out and has fixed them, I'm going to try it myself, but need to get the spoke I.D. ?

    He wants me to bring in the wheel, so, I'm learning that there are different size spokes on the same wheel !

    I wish it was a little easier, like, having a number for each spoke.

    I'm gonna take the wheel in.
     
  13. cachehiker

    cachehiker New Member

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    This may be true for the typical Walmart bike but I recently rode my bike for 150 miles at 23 mph without benefit of a motor. I don't see how a motor is going to put much more stress on a wheel than my own pedaling. If that's not enough I've now put a total of 8000 miles on that bike and the rear wheel only has 20 spokes!

    I build most of my own wheels from the ground up. I've done about 20 of them now. Having ideal spoke tension means bombproof wheels that don't look like they should be.

    The problem is the nature of the product. Cheap rim, cheap spokes, cheap hub, machine laced and machine tensioned at whatever setting gets them built and out the door fastest. What you very often get is a 36 spoke wheel with 12 spokes doing most of the work (high tension) and 12 spokes that are just along for the ride (low tension). As far as the bearings go, same deal. God only knows what the bearing preload was. Too tight or too loose? Not enough grease? Even good bearings won't last.

    If the rim is puckered you should NOT reuse it. I'd hesitate to reuse the spokes too. Buying a similar Sun AT-18 rim and 36 generic straight gauge spokes is about $30. Paying the local bike shop to build the wheel back up will likely run you another $35. The best wheelbuilder here in the "Happy Valley" charges $50 and so would I. However, you can probably pick up a basic machine built wheel for $40 and they will probably verify the tensioning for free.

    If it's way off the wheel will need to be retensioned and they may or may not want to charge you for that. Every nipple is backed off until the threads just barely show and tightened a turn at a time until the tension is correct. The wheel is then dished (centered) and trued (straightened). It takes me about a half an hour for a basic retensioning and an hour or more if it's MY wheel and it's built with an $80 hub, $70 rim, and $30 worth of spokes.
     
  14. cachehiker

    cachehiker New Member

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    Good idea.

    Your spokes are most likely 2.0mm diameter but there are other sizes.

    The drive side spokes are usually about 2mm shorter than the non-drive side spokes too. I haven't worked on an inexpensive wheel in ages but I'm just guessing they're probably around 270mm long if you've got a single wall rim like most department store bikes do.
     
  15. Wheel Rush

    Wheel Rush New Member

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    Inspiring to say the least ! I hope I get that good !

    I just got back with a new spoke, while I was there I saw a wheel,

    really great looking, I think it was chromium-steel, gonna get one, looks like what I need, sorry I don't have the specs, but I get them next visit, I was there to get the spoke and pick up a socket at the hardware.
    But, although your advice is first rate, if it was a front wheel I definetly would not try what I am gonna do, and that is fix it !

    or at least try, then I'm gonna except the Huffy that comes through delivery, and I'm going back to the bike shop and buy that chromium, first chance.

    I'll mount the Chromium, looks like a winner !


    Oh he said that my wheel was pretty much no dish and that the spokes would be pretty much all the same size, although he did get out a measurement device and check the size.
    So. I'll let you know how it work goes.
     
  16. misteright1_99

    misteright1_99 New Member

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    Cachehiker, I believe that there is ALOT more stress on the spokes with the torque of the motor as versus how much torque you can apply with your legs, and all this stress is applied to one side of the wheel the side the where the rag joint clamps the sprocket to the drive side spokes. Once you tighten the rag joints and the sprocket down it has to reshape the wheel somewhat, and pull it towards the sprocket, and make 18 of the 36 spokes do most of the work. I agree these are cheap products, and there are people that build wheels with motorcycle spokes, but with proper care such as tying spokes and a little common sense such as peddling to start and then using motor to lessen torque on wheel, you should be good for quite a while. I have a couple hundred miles and no spoke problems but have replaced the rear bearings....
     
  17. cachehiker

    cachehiker New Member

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    I think you should ride with some of the Cat. 2's out here. 20+ mph sprints up a 6% grade is the norm if you want to keep up.

    I'll admit to being a bit obsessive about my wheels but I would never clamp a sprocket on one without retensioning it. A properly tensioned and dished 36 spoke wheel will have 18 pulling spokes effectively sharing the load under acceleration. A poorly built wheel will have only 6 carrying 300% higher tension when accelerating at which point it becomes more likely that one will the pull through the spoke bed of the rim. It's generally one of the 12 spokes that are "just along for the ride" that snap at the bend or nipple due to metal fatigue.

    IIRC, a good DT Swiss 14 gauge spoke will take about 400 lbs. before it's at risk of breaking. I tension the majority of my wheels to 240 lbs. At 25 mph, given a little quick and dirty +/-20% trigonometry, the 160 lb. margin equates to about 50 peak hp required for instantaneous spoke failure. For a poorly built wheel we're looking at 17 peak hp. The high cycle fatigue limit is generally about 35% of this or just 6 hp for a poorly built wheel as opposed to 18 hp for an ideally tensioned one at 25 mph.

    I realize that I'm not taking the strength of the spoke bed into account but one of these has a generous safety margin for being powered with an 80cc motor. The other does not.
     
    #17 cachehiker, Jul 14, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2008
  18. misteright1_99

    misteright1_99 New Member

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  19. Wheel Rush

    Wheel Rush New Member

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    Correction the wheel I have on my wish list are Shimano, Aluminum Alloy
    and the spokes are 12 gauge.

    Your right about the Rag side, Exactly that is where it popped, I got the pucker, ( dimple), back in and relatively flat, backed it up with a small washer, so, after some new bolts I will be putting the sprocket back on.

    I am wondering since I have the rubber off, if I should true the wheel with the rubber off, and check the interior nipple heads and or use these to tighten or loosen the spokes, . . also, should I loosen all thirty-six spokes as if there is a need to adjust alignment would I go over and tighten a spoke that is already maxed ? What happens when a spoke is at the end of its thread, does it stop or will force strip it, (dumb question I guess ?), and how does that nipple screw head stop turning, I mean it can turn when adjusting from the exterior rim, right ?
     
  20. cachehiker

    cachehiker New Member

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    Installing the sprocket probably tightened the two or three already overtightened spokes.

    Always easier to true and dish without the rubber.

    It's faster and easier to add tension a turn at a time at the beginning from the tire side of the rim.

    Check out this site: Building Bicycle Wheels by Sheldon Brown
    Spend $10 on a good spoke wrench. Believe me, it's worth it.
    Then go back and read the article a second time before you start.

    The nipple is generally brass and strips first but there's usually 2mm of threads to spare. Nipples are also cheaper and easier to replace than spokes so that's OK with me.

    On most wheels, you can adjust it from either side. Tire side with a flat blade screwdriver (use one that fits the slot well) or hub side with a good spoke wrench.

    I'd also get it pretty close (about a half turn or so away) before you attach the sprocket semi-snug and alternately tighten the spokes and sprocket til they feel right. Stop and stress relieve the wheel between going back and forth.

    Oh, and take your time, no rush, don't be suprised if your first attempt goes out of true after the first couple of rides. Mine did. You catch on after a few tries and then start getting quicker.
     

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