New 4 stroke Kits

The Engine used for the in frame shown here is not the same 4 stroke engine used for Titan. The cranks are totally different. You can not take the cheap gear box from the in frame and mount it to the Titan engine and make it work. It will not work. These are different engines. And..By the way.. That is the reason we are not selling the In frames is because of the poor gear boxes. Very poor. The engine used is bullet proof, the gear boxes are not and are very poor. We at Dax are working on a silent or near silent gear box that is bullet proof. Should be available by spring of 2010. It takes time to develop and test. Thanks...
 
ricland said:
Well, now I don't know.

Xcel seems to be saying the livefast or Dax is a more problem-free set-up. I sure would prefer a frame mount but really don't want to wait until the end of summer to get one.

Overall, do you think the rackmounts are more reliable?

ricland
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Yes I do. I have not built a Grubee 4stroke frame mount but after years of building frame mounts I recommend rack instead of frame. The gear boxes and frame mounting issues put me off.

After witnessing some severe accidents due to vibration issues and having a frame break completely in half under me Im very wary of direct frame mount engines of any kind.

I own and have built Grubee 2 strokes, 2 strokes from various suppliers, Staton rack mounts and a Dax rack mount. Although one of my favorite bikes is a 2 stroke with SBP shifter kit, I think racks are the way to go.
 
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Xcel said:
Yes I do. I have not built a Grubee 4stroke frame mount but after years of building frame mounts I recommend rack instead of frame. The gear boxes and frame mounting issues put me off.

After witnessing some severe accidents due to vibration issues and having a frame break completely in half under me Im very wary of direct frame mount engines of any kind.

I own and have built Grubee 2 strokes, 2 strokes from various suppliers, Staton rack mounts and a Dax rack mount. Although one of my favorite bikes is a 2 stroke with SBP shifter kit, I think racks are the way to go.
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I'm surprised you got zero arguments on frame mount vs rack mount since probably 90% of the bikes owned by people on this forum are frame mount. How would vibration issues cause severe accidents? I'd say that would be extremely rare and surely there were other issues involved. And I'll bet if you read every thread here, it would be hard to find a frame mount owner that had his bike break in half. And I really don't understand what mounting issues there are with a frame mount. They are simple as can be whether it's 2 stroke or 4 stroke. And the gearbox is part of the engine on most present kits. The newer gear setups being promised and the one from SBP are separate from the engine but still very simple and I can't see how they would make the bikes prone to breaking apart. This is just my opinion, but a frame mount is the perfect balance. A rack mount adds weight to the top of the bike and although you can get used to it, it could never be as balanced as a frame mount. It has to be at least a little top heavy. I've seen some frame mounts that looked and behaved like a TV set sitting on the rear carrier. I have an electric bike with heavy batteries on the rear rack and believe me, all that weight in that area makes the bike do strange, dangerous things if you have a little mishap on gravel. The rear end whips around and takes you down when you normally might have been able to stay upright. On friction drive bikes, a rack mount is the way to go but for chain or belt, I'll stick with frame mounts.
 
The only frame failures I've seen are those with the front motor mount attached by drilling through the frame - which makes me uneasy of course as I was forced to do this :(

I suspect that much of this is due to the structural weakening caused by a hole in such a critical area, combined with a 2 stroke that isn't running as well as it could (4stroking & additional vibration) as well as loose mounts/attempts to reduce felt vibration with "soft" motor mounts.

Add to that the stock "rag joint" type rear sprocket mounting - guaranteed only to be offset, leading to a almost imperceptible yet constant and serious "wrenching" of the engine to the drive side and this all adds up as contributing factors.

Yeah - I've given this a little thought as it's my ass on the line lol

Yet, my build seems to be holding up well. I've addressed all the above except the sprocket mount (soon to change). I would say that an in-frame mount done properly without drilling the frame, "soft" mounts, or some of the strange offset exhaust clamp style mounts done in desperation would be the safest, most balanced, and effective method of engine placement.

There's a reason that motorcycles have their engines where they do lol - no offense to the rack-mount crowd, I've had my fair share and loved 'em, but the odd balance and inability to have a cargo rack (minor issue, but annoying) have made me go with the in-frame style with no reservations.

All in all - I wouldn't blame the in-frame style for any failures, I'd blame poor mount techniques - an issue that would plague rack mounts too I bet ;)
 
My honda rack mount doesnt affect the handling of the bike what so ever. The motor weighs 12lbs and the mounting gear maybe another 5lbs. You dont even notice the weight when your riding with the motor driving it or just pedaling. Its funny though when the bikes stationary you do notice the weight being more on one side then the other, gotta be careful where you park it like on a small incline or what ever.
 
starrunner said:
And I really don't understand what mounting issues there are with a frame mount. They are simple as can be whether it's 2 stroke or 4 stroke. And the gearbox is part of the engine on most present kits. The newer gear setups being promised and the one from SBP are separate from the engine but still very simple and I can't see how they would make the bikes prone to breaking apart.
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Every single story I heard of a fender coming less loose and locking up the front wheel was from a China 2 stroke. Bolting an engine block to a bicycle frame can indeed cause vibration problems.

I started using GEBE kits a while back and they are as reliable as my car, I never think about hopping on and taking a spin.

There is no comparison. But I still own and will ride a frame mount 2 stroke on occasion.
 
question and my 2 cents worth. i have a 49 cc grubee a 66 cc china girl i forgot the manufacter name and a 49cc 4 stroke with the hoot box, problems i had, i drilled the frame on the 66 a huffy cranbrook it lasted maybe 5 miles big hole in frame busted bolt. bought the kit from sbp and no more problems maybe 250 miles. the grubee mounted perfect on a tanaka mt bike no problems lots of miles, the 4 stoke lost the chain and broke the woodruff key, that key was about as tuff as atoothpik built my own no more problems, the 66 climbs hills really well as does the 4 stoke the grubee is just a little weak, so the question some one said they run gear oil in the hoot doesnt this cause clutch slippage? would really like to quiet it down some and get some good lube going please advise, also someone out there said there sitting on hoots and will sell them cheap i think its dax later frank
 
I would blame THAT failure on the mount tab for that particular style fender Xcel, insufficient and prone to hidden rust - it'd fail eventually w/o an engine with the same catastrophic consequences, if perhaps at a slower speed...

The shaking of a poorly tuned two stroke (or any motor for that matter) just accelerated the process. I think the 2 strokes are just far more common - thus the stories.

Other than that and the questionable bolt-through Dtube method of mounting I really cant think of any vibration specific problems tbh - both of those examples are also cases of "pilot error" as I see it and needing to except the consequences of bolting any motor to a bicycle.

I like 4 strokes, but I wouldn't go so far as to say their any safer or less harmful to the bike. All motorized bikes need more attention and maintenance, a consequence of added weight and speed.

Four stroke, two stroke, rack or frame mount - doesn't matter, gotta keep on top of the bike's needs is all ;)
 
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Hopefully, the ones in the process of developing a bullet proof 4 stroke frame mount like dax will also address the rear sprocket issue since they have plenty of documentation here and their own experiences to show improvements are needed. My hope has always been that someone would come up with a non-spoke mag type cast rear wheel with holes for various size sprockets to be easily interchanged, eliminating the spokes. But with the right gearing system, changing sprockets would be unnecessary and could be done on the jackshaft and get a wide variety of gear ratios. I believe EZmotor's silent drive actually does this.
 
starrunner said:
with the right gearing system, changing sprockets would be unnecessary and could be done on the jackshaft and get a wide variety of gear ratios. I believe EZmotor's silent drive actually does this.
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yes, you can
and yes...I have :):):) ...
with excellent success !!! :)

grampa is a very happy motorbiker !!!
 
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WOW, What can I say?

"also someone out there said there sitting on hoots and will sell them cheap i think its dax"

I don't know about Dax, but I have a bunch of "Hoot" boxes & clutches for sale cheap. Did I mention the word "cheap"? Contact me for a "cheap" price.

There are several comments I find necessary to make, first I like 4 strokes, secondly I would only consider frame mount and lastly many should be ashamed of the less than acceptable quality we have had shoved down our throats for many years. Of course we deserve it because we continue to show our support by continuing to buy the "stuff".

Of course a dose of "you get what you pay for" might be injected into this post. How can we expect something that sells for a little over $100.00, to be tested, endure any quality control, or have a great warranty?

My preference for 4 stroke is based on 15 years of MC racing, because all my 2 strokes needed rebuilt between every race and the 4 strokes were rebuilt once a year. And the 2 stroke were quality units [Yamaha, AJS, Kawaski, Bultaco, Carabela, etc], not made in China. And I like the power band, torque. and sound of the 4 stroke motor.

My like for frame mounts is simple, center of gravity & handling, and I know a few praise rack mounts, but I have watched many of them fall over when parked because of the high center of gravity, of course the great thing about America is "we have choices".

I won't bother to comment on what some companies continue to market, however I am somewhat disapointed that many continue to buy the "system 2" to fix the problem of "system 1", and then buy "system 3" to upgrade "system 2", etc.

After a lot of research we found the little 49 CC 4-stroke motors to be very durable, and unlike most 2-strokes, it was made for a different use. The little 4 stroke was made to run for a long time in a stationary position [water pumps, generators, etc], and was self cooling via the flywheel/cover system. It is a shame the little motor was disgraced by attaching low quality drive systems to power our motobikes.

I also know some try to act like their motor is "different", but the motors share the same basics, and 99% of the parts are interchangeable. The major difference is in the final drive system, some turn one way, some the other, some have reduction boxes, some don't, some have built in clutches, some don't, some have different shaft lengths and shaft O.D.s, but the basic motor is the same. I can state from a lot of testing the 49 CC 4-stroke is a "Winner", and I have tested several version of the HS and also the Honda. In fact a couple of our dealers just attached our Q-Matic to the larger Harbor Frieght "Greyhound" motor, and it worked great.

Because of drive system issues with many suppliers, EZM will offer the new Q-matic [via authorized dealers] to fit many [most] of the 4-stroke frame mounted motors. We have tested the majority of this drive system for over a year, and the automatic clutch is made by MaxTorque, the leader in clutch design, of course it is American made and costs more. We built in the majority of features many requested including, adaptability, off the shelf parts when possible, American suppliers, fabricators, machine shops, and labor throughout. We also listened about upgrades, and the Q-matic, Silent drive, and Quite Power can be customized to fit the need of the motorbiker.

At least we are trying to put a little quality back into the equasion and so far we have been 99% succesful.

We are currenty expanding into sprokets, mounts, & rear drive systems. We hope to have several of the better designs available via our dealers in the near future. There are some promising designs already being tested and hopefully we can add something in the process.

Have fun,
 
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Hi Youngbird,

Was hoping you would be at the rally in Lewes. Sorry you didn't make it.

We are still accepting bids on the final parts for the bearing supports, but we hope to stay with our original estimates. We hope to use $249.00 as our MSRP, however the prophit margin will be small for the dealer until we can get our costs lower. We have been working with several American vendors and they have gone the extra mile to meet our price goals.

Have fun,
 
BarelyAWake said:
The only frame failures I've seen are those with the front motor mount attached by drilling through the frame - which makes me uneasy of course as I was forced to do this :(

I suspect that much of this is due to the structural weakening caused by a hole in such a critical area, combined with a 2 stroke that isn't running as well as it could (4stroking & additional vibration) as well as loose mounts/attempts to reduce felt vibration with "soft" motor mounts.

Add to that the stock "rag joint" type rear sprocket mounting - guaranteed only to be offset, leading to a almost imperceptible yet constant and serious "wrenching" of the engine to the drive side and this all adds up as contributing factors.

Yeah - I've given this a little thought as it's my ass on the line lol

Yet, my build seems to be holding up well. I've addressed all the above except the sprocket mount (soon to change). I would say that an in-frame mount done properly without drilling the frame, "soft" mounts, or some of the strange offset exhaust clamp style mounts done in desperation would be the safest, most balanced, and effective method of engine placement.

There's a reason that motorcycles have their engines where they do lol - no offense to the rack-mount crowd, I've had my fair share and loved 'em, but the odd balance and inability to have a cargo rack (minor issue, but annoying) have made me go with the in-frame style with no reservations.

All in all - I wouldn't blame the in-frame style for any failures, I'd blame poor mount techniques - an issue that would plague rack mounts too I bet ;)
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Thanks, you saved me a lot of typing.
 
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