That is a great frame. I have over 3000 hard miles on mine. The frame is made by the Cleveland Welding Company . http://motorbicycling.com/f38/early-1940s-amf-board-track-project-22517.html
Just purchased a Western Flyer Hiawatha
- Thread starter porch lizard
- Start date
Nice stuff! Check the length of the head tube to see if you can use that springer on your men's bike. On some of the old ones the girls models had a longer head tube for some reason. Even it it's longer there may be a way to use it anyway. Cool looking. I don't know what the frame is, but Bairdco might. He's pretty sharp with these old timers.
The second Hiawatha has lots of potential for a motorbike. You did well, bud!
SB
The second Hiawatha has lots of potential for a motorbike. You did well, bud!
SB
SlowBalt... That's one beautiful bike that you built and it sounds as if it runs great too. I hope I can build one that looks half as good. I never thought about the engine fitting in that big open space, I thought it would be no problem. Well, I'll have to deal with it when I get that far. I didn't think of the front brakes either when I decided to add springer forks. Lots of things to think about even before I begin, but thats half the fun. Thanks for sharing your building process, I'll be looking it over as I go along.
Silverbear... I just measured the head tube, and thank goodness they measure the same. The springer looks like original to the bike,but it was assembled wrong and didn't work the way they had it put together. They had the wheel axle bolted in the wrong hole, so no movement was possible. What I do know about is 3 paint jobs--white, the most recent, then Brittish racing green, and original a medium blue. The bottom bracket #'s are: MOS-Q underneath that: MOD 502 and underneath that: SD 98436
Yeah, Slowbalt is right. Cleveland Welding made that frame.
I'm not claiming to be an expert but I have had many Roadmaster and Hiawatha bikes made by Cleveland Welding Co. over the years.
I don't think it is from the 30's or early 40's, more like the late 40's or early 50's.
Skiptooth sprockets were used up into the 50's. Schwinn stopped using the rear facing rear wheel dropouts in the early 40's but other companys continued to use that design until the late 40's or early 50's.
Cleveland Welding made frames for many bike brands. They are pretty tough frames, maybe not as strong as a Schwinn frame, but not many are.
I'm not claiming to be an expert but I have had many Roadmaster and Hiawatha bikes made by Cleveland Welding Co. over the years.
I don't think it is from the 30's or early 40's, more like the late 40's or early 50's.
Skiptooth sprockets were used up into the 50's. Schwinn stopped using the rear facing rear wheel dropouts in the early 40's but other companys continued to use that design until the late 40's or early 50's.
Cleveland Welding made frames for many bike brands. They are pretty tough frames, maybe not as strong as a Schwinn frame, but not many are.
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Trying to fgure out a definite maker and date for these old bike frames is turning out to be quite frustrating. Seaching the internet for info hasn't solved it yet, and I wish there was one place to go to find out. Thanks for your input. I'm inclined to agree that Cleveland made the bike as well. I am not sure of the company that sold it though. Silverbear and others think Gambles sold it, but I haven't seen any of the front badges that match mine, and the gambles models usually have their name on the front badge or decals. I'll probably have a few thousand miles on it before I find out for sure. Its going to make a good new years project. Have a happy new year!!Got any projects that you're going to start this year?
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No argument about Cleveland welding. Different "makes" used different sources for their frames depending on what time period. For some years use one frame source and then purchase from a different source.
You may never know for sure what year and it is nothing to agonize over. Try posting photos and an inquiry with these folks...
The Classic and Antique Bicycle Exchange - The Classic and Antique Bicycle Exchange
They are very good at identifying bikes and giving an estimate of when it was likely made.
I don't understand why you are still wondering what it is. It says right on the head badge and on the fake gas tank that it is a Hiawatha. If you look up Hiawatha bicycle it will tell you who the distributor was.
Serial numbers are a sure identifier for some years of some manufacturers. For others there is no database available for what the serial numbers mean. In that case the guys at CABE look for advertisements from certain years to see it they can find a match or at least come close. They identified the ladies' Hiawatha I had as a 1939.
I'll be very surprised if your first bike (with the tank) was made in the 50's, but I don't pretend to be a great expert with Hiawathas. I still think late 30's or maybe 1940's, but doubt as late as the 50's. Sometimes you're in for a surprise, however. I found a Schwinn straight bar at the dump some years ago with a skip tooth chain and was just sure it was pre-war. A check of the serial numbers dated it at 1950, however. With Elgins you know it is pre-war if it says Elgin on it. After the war it was called JC Higgins. At the end of wwII some manufacturers used a mish mash of parts... some inventory from different models made before the war and some new parts made after. It can make identification pretty interesting...
SB
You may never know for sure what year and it is nothing to agonize over. Try posting photos and an inquiry with these folks...
The Classic and Antique Bicycle Exchange - The Classic and Antique Bicycle Exchange
They are very good at identifying bikes and giving an estimate of when it was likely made.
I don't understand why you are still wondering what it is. It says right on the head badge and on the fake gas tank that it is a Hiawatha. If you look up Hiawatha bicycle it will tell you who the distributor was.
Serial numbers are a sure identifier for some years of some manufacturers. For others there is no database available for what the serial numbers mean. In that case the guys at CABE look for advertisements from certain years to see it they can find a match or at least come close. They identified the ladies' Hiawatha I had as a 1939.
I'll be very surprised if your first bike (with the tank) was made in the 50's, but I don't pretend to be a great expert with Hiawathas. I still think late 30's or maybe 1940's, but doubt as late as the 50's. Sometimes you're in for a surprise, however. I found a Schwinn straight bar at the dump some years ago with a skip tooth chain and was just sure it was pre-war. A check of the serial numbers dated it at 1950, however. With Elgins you know it is pre-war if it says Elgin on it. After the war it was called JC Higgins. At the end of wwII some manufacturers used a mish mash of parts... some inventory from different models made before the war and some new parts made after. It can make identification pretty interesting...
SB
Silverbear...I just got a reply from NBHAA , run by Leon Dixon who says my Hiawatha is a St. Croix model made by Cleveland Welding Co. So far no date of manufacture, but he is still checking. (Have patience he said.) I guess I may be getting a little carried away with trying to date this project, but when I ride my current MaB around my area in Iowa, I get all kinds of questions about it. When I get the Hiawatha up and running, I'd like to be able to tell people what year it is, what model it is, who sold it, whether it was made by a German or a drunk Norweigan (lol) Its kind of like getting an old Ford mustang and wanting to know more about it than it's a Ford. The Hiawatha will be a MaB, and I'm just out to have fun with it. I've been looking at the fake tank, and I don't think it is suitable to make into a gas tank, because of the way it sits in the frame. It covers too much of the top and bottom tubes and is in two pieces. If I connected them, it would make it too tall to fit into the frame. I'm in the planning stage for making a similar tank that will fit. I'm also going to see if I can find decals for the tank that match the original ones. I've been checking out your Indian Hiawatha build, and I'm impressed with what you've been doing with it. It looks like alot of work, but will sure look nice when done. I can only hope that with my limited skills, that mine comes out half as nice.
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Fitting a tank inside the 2 halves might be possible, but I don't think it would hold the amount of gas I'd like to have. I want a tank with at least 1 gal. and a 1 1/2 to 2 gal tank would be even better, since I'd like to take longer trips with fewer fill-ups. However, it might be possible to make the center part of the tank, and use the fake tank halves as the outside ends. I'll have to give it some thought. The fake tank ends would have to be reduced in size, as they won't pass through the frame.
I don't quite know how you'd go about making the fake tank "real". I would think it would be simpler to make an in frame tank for it either out of steel (welded), copper or tin (soldered) or out of fiberglass, depending on what you are familiar with. I would imagine that fake tank could bring some serious dollars on ebay. There aren't going to be many of those around.
I understand your desire to know more about the bike and hope your resource can pin point for you when it was made. Someone here on the forum can tell you about who can make decals for you from a photo. I know it is possible, but don't know who does it. If you had a dozen or two sets made up you might be able to make some money selling them and help pay for your build. Just a thought.
SB
I understand your desire to know more about the bike and hope your resource can pin point for you when it was made. Someone here on the forum can tell you about who can make decals for you from a photo. I know it is possible, but don't know who does it. If you had a dozen or two sets made up you might be able to make some money selling them and help pay for your build. Just a thought.
SB
If you made the tank from fibreglass, you could maybe use the tank insides as a mold. Then you would get as much capacity as possible. Then make the tank at the right height to fit inside the frame. The 2 sides of the inside tank could be glued together with epoxy. I would also use epoxy to wet out the fibreglass as it's fuel resistant.
Thanks for the suggestions on the tank for my Hiawatha. If you look at the fake tank, you might be able to see in my pic's, that when the two halves come together it is larger than the frame opening. That means I'd have to rework them to a smaller size in order to fit the frame opening, which destroys them. I'd rather do a complete re-make of them before doing that. I think it would be easier and quicker to make a whole new tank than re-work the old one.
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yeah i guess if you made a fibreglass 'inside tank' with a reduced height down the middle for the frame, there would be no way to get it in & out of the frame (as the sides would be bigger than the frame).
yep, you better make a new tank!
yep, you better make a new tank!
Brett7777... That's a fine looking SportsmanFlyer. looks like your tank would fit into my frame. How much gas does it hold?
I dunno how much it holds. Pat's tank for schwinns looks like it would be more likely to fit yours, but you would have to get some measurements or a template from sportscarpat
Regarding the year of your bike. I was just looking on ebay and see there is a men's cruiser with skip tooth chain... 1954, so apparently Hiawatha kept the skip tooth long after most makers went to what we have today. So, maybe it is 50's.
1954 Hiawatha Tank Bicycle Balloon Tire bike with rack, nice skip tooth cruiser | eBay
SB
1954 Hiawatha Tank Bicycle Balloon Tire bike with rack, nice skip tooth cruiser | eBay
SB
I suppose it's possible that one of Pat's tanks made for a Schwinn could fit in a frame made by Cleveland Welding, but is pretty slim. Schwinn made it's own frames. Cool if they were the same, though, since Pat's tanks are very good.
SB
In my checking around for the specs on my Hiawathas, I've come across that bike on eBay. It looks almost identical to my second Hiawatha, the differences being the front badge on mine instead of the decal, and diferent front forks, chain ring design, and the chain guard. Mine used to be red frame and white fenders with red pinstripes. I'm still waiting on Leon Dixon at National Bicycle Historical Archives, for their detailed report. Are Pat's tanks the fiberglass ones that I ran across on another post? If so, they do look good, and I've had some experince with fiberglass, but I haven't decided yet what to make one out of. I have acess to some big pieces of brass cylinders that I might be able to work with. I'll probably end up making one out af sheet metal first, and try to make it look like the fake tank. Silverbear...have you checked how much gas your copper tank will hold? It would be helpful to know, as I want a tank that will go 160- 200 miles so I only have to fill up once a week. (1.5 gals. I'm thinking would be nice.)
