I got a new Whizzer and a bunch of questions

Wow Lenny, I was wondering what happened to you. Hope you're well.
That crud build-up doesn't look good.
So far my Whizzer has run pretty good, and all stock at that. If this is the future of mine (under 500 miles) then I better get cracking on some mods.
Yours is the NE-5, a rugged motor. When you get it done, I'm sure it will be well worth the effort. :ride2:
 
Hi Lennyharp,
Let me guide you through what I would do if I were repairing your motor in my shop. First let me cover the good news, of all the heads used on the NE motor, the very early [very rare, used on motor with 26 MM carburetor] and the last version has the most potential, and it looks like you have one of the last version heads [also rare]. But a few comments about the head and what I would do if it were my motor. If you look closely it will become apparent that when the head was cast, it wasn't aligned correctly, and required additional machine work to "clearance" the valve heads into the combustion chamber. Because of this misalignment the valve pockets are now oblong instead of round, but a little work with a Dremel grinder can smooth out the the uneven areas. All of the NE heads use the long reach sparkplug, however it might be considered poor engineering for 2 reasons, sometimes the carbon buildup on the extra threads removes the threads in the head during removal, and many consider extra threads in the combustion chamber a cause of higher operating tempatures. There is a NGK replacement with a shorter reach but it is too short. Most tuners looking for power and lower tempatures, will either mill the area on top of the head to use the shorter plug, or put extra washers under the longer plug to remove some of the threads sticking in the combustion chamber [don't use many or you will effect the heat range of the plug].
Often I have checked heads that weren't level when they were cast, and had to mill them to have the desired "level" surface to seal correctly with the cylinder. If you mill the head [.060"] you will increase the durability, and add power at the same time. Durabilty will be enhanced because as the head is milled the mating surface around the larger 10 MM head bolts will widen, because the chamber has angled sides which increases as it gets closer to the top of the chamber. The milled head will also be more reliable because it will be flat and will be less likely to leak. Some of the side effects of a milled head include more power, easier starting, smoother idle, faster acceleration, etc.
In order for the head to mate well with the cylinder, the cylinder must be flat [level], and from your pictures I see large tool markes across the top of your cylinder. You might want to remove the valves and buff the top of the cylinder on a good belt sander, then work the head on #220 sandpaper on a level surface [piece of marble is what I use]. If it were my cylinder [which it isn't] I would recut the valve seats, lap the valves in with grinding compound, install the progressive springs correctly [tight winding towards the valve guide], and know I would have good compression and a better seal. Another modification that should be considered is a possible casting flaw at the top of the exhaust port should be removed for better flow. On the majority of cylinders I re-work, I also install a special aluminum tube in the hole in the base of the cylinder to help separate the oil and air to help vent the crankcase a little more.
Hope this information is helpful.

Have fun,
Quenton
 
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Thanks, for the interest Weedy-Lot. I am surviving and hope to be riding again soon. I want to get down your way but my days off are not weekend days.

Quenton, I will attempt to get all that done on the motor as it all makes sense. Walt is planning on redoing the valve seats anyhow so I will see if I can't help get the list done. You are old school where you help a lot of Whizzer people out as you know a lot of what is needed and are willing. Thanks.!!
 
Hi Neat Times,
From reading an article by world motorcycle expert Gordon Jennings, I did see a comment about removing the threads at the end of the plug. I doubt removing the amount of extra threads on the C7E would be the same as just a small area mentioned in the article. I will paste the article on my post so you can see for yourself. I will mention total credit of the quote belongs to Gordon Jennings.


“We know from personal observation that people do make plug-reach mistakes; using 3/4-inch plugs in 1/2-inch holes is the most common error, and one fraught with unpleasant consequences. One of the disasters you can have from using a long-reach plug in a short-reach hole is purely mechanical in nature. In time the plug threads exposed inside the combustion chamber may become filled with hard-baked deposits. If that happens you'll find it almost impossible to remove the plug without also removing the plug hole threads. Reversing this kind of mistake, using a plug reach too short for the hole, lets deposits fill the plug hole's exposed threads and may cause difficulties when you try to install a plug having the correct reach.
The worst and most immediate problem created by an overly-long plug in an engine is that the exposed threads absorb a terrific amount of heat from the combustion process. This raises the plug-nose temperatures, and may take them up high enough to make the side electrode function as a glow plug. And when that happens you have the white-hot electrode firing the mixture far too early, like an over-advanced spark timing but worse because the early ignition causes yet higher combustion chamber temperatures, which causes even earlier ignition. This condition is known as "runaway pre-ignition," and if it is allowed to proceed it will wreck your engine.
Even a single plug thread exposed in an engine's combustion chamber will raise electrode temperatures quite markedly. That could be a real problem as engine makers don't hold plug-hole depths to close tolerances, and the near-universal adoption of crushable plug washers gives the user a chance to compound errors by over-tightening when installing fresh plugs. Spark plug manufacturers have solved the problem by leaving an unthreaded relief at plugs' lower ends. The relief also serves as a pilot, guiding a plug straight into the plug hole. Finally, the relief accommodates differences in opinion between plug makers about how nominal reach dimensions should translate into actual metal - and there are some small differences.”
by Gordon Jennings


Have fun,
Quenton
EZ Motorbike Company
 
Thank God for Quenton, he be the man on Whizzers. :D For my two cents I was thinking about using threaded steel inserts on the head to eliminate aluminum vs steel thread challenges; an expensive/ laborious concept I suppose. Another idea, (watch out I'm dangerous when I try to think) is painting the exposed portion of the threads with flat black paint before installation. The idea is that crud will build up on the paint instead of the metal, theoretically allowing the crud and paint to "peel" off during removal. That might leave a little crud in the cylinder, but it should leave the aluminum threads intact also. :D
This is an adaptation of preventing bluing of chrome exhaust pipes by spraying the inside of the pipe with black paint before first use.
 
Hi All, Been On The Road. Took Pics Of Whizzer In The Attic On Tuesday. They Looked Good On The Camera (camera Is A Decent Model) I Forgot To Use The Flash. Duh ! When I Downloaded, They Are Too Dark. Will Try Again Tomorrow. Told Him The Whizzer Guys Have Parts Etc.!! Ron
 
One thing I noticed is the blue color on the exhaust pipe. This is an indication of the engine running lean and hot. That is not good for engine at all. Quenton, what do you think?

Jim
 
It was running lean, exhaust pipe proves it. Mainly because of the seal between the head & cylinder [looks like the head gasket wasn't able to seal very well]. If you take a close look at the head you will notice it was leaking in several large areas. I have heard rumors that someone might have "decked" his cylinder, milled some metal off the head [you know, just to make it level], touched up the ports a tad, and smoothed out the combustion chamber. I even heard a rumor that re-cutting the valve seats, re-cutting the exhaust valve, and lapping the valves in was also considered while he had it apart.

Never know, it might roar to life very soon.

Have fun,
Quenton
EZ Motorbike Company
 
What a coincidence. That sounds like what happened to my cylinder and head. I hope he gets the mushroom lifters too. They work well.

Jim
 
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Since I want a bike that I can ride around the state not just the block I did send my cylinder and head off to Quenton to detail. I am pleased with the work and it was done quickly and for a modest cost. I got the parts to Quenton on Thanksgiving Day After(Friday). The work was done and parts delivered to me the next Thursday.
We are slowly getting the bike back together. I hope to get it running again tomorrow on my first day off in a couple of weeks. I am working with Walt a local Whizzer dealer who also compliments Quenton's work. We got side tracked today when he received a couple of the new 2009 Whizzer NE-R Classic in and started putting it together.
I can't wait for it to run again. The heat treatment seems to have helped the threads in the cylinder. I am waiting on a local machinist to lighten the lifter rods. I'll report back when it is running.
 
Did you get the cylinder painted black too? I love the look and it does reduce the engine temp too but I'm not sure why.

Jim
 

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I wonder why there is the thought that if you paint the cylinder or any other part of the engine it would run cooler! Paint is an insulator. The reason that the first engine cylinders were painted is because they were iron and would rust. On all the Honda's, the ones with iron cylinders were painted and the same engine with the Aluminum part was left bare. I like the look of the painted black engine but only for nostalgia, and I worry about mine getting hot with it. Have fun, Dave
 
Hi Egor,
Lots of opinions about paint & heat, but here are the facts. I have tested this theory about 25 times with a heat sensor, and the average is 50 to 75 degrees cooler using "black" heat paint. I have even tried different colors including orange, blue & white. I will let everyone else try to figure why this works and is true, but white didn't reduce the operating tempature, in fact on a couple of tests it increased the tempature about 10 degrees. I have seen many explainations, but when I raced for HD they painted the original XR750 aluminum test cylinders black.

Have fun,
Quenton
EZ Motorbike Company
 
GOOD MORNING EGOR, AND QUENTON; LIKE YOU, I NEVER THOUGHT IT MADE SENSE TO PAINT CYC BLK EITHER. YRS AGO HARLEY D DID SAY TO DO IT, AND THAT THEY WOULD RUN COOLER. ITS COOL THAT QUENTEN RAN THE TESTS. WAS HE A GUEST ON MYTH BUSTERS!(^).fly.bf.
 
Hey Lenny
Have you run the engine yet? Wait till you hear the difference in the exhaust note. With the higher compression it has a much beefier sound. (at least to me it does) You will notice the better overall feel of the engine.
Enjoy the ride
Jim
 
Quinton - I think you are correct in your readings, but think about it you are reading the outside of the paint, if it is doing its job you are reading the paint and not the engine. I wonder if you would bare off a spot next to the paint and take a reading I wonder if it would be the same. There are instances when you want to retain heat, I never understood how in the fuel mileage runs they insulate the engine to keep the heat in, go figure. Have fun, Dave

Hi Egor,
Lots of opinions about paint & heat, but here are the facts. I have tested this theory about 25 times with a heat sensor, and the average is 50 to 75 degrees cooler using "black" heat paint. I have even tried different colors including orange, blue & white. I will let everyone else try to figure why this works and is true, but white didn't reduce the operating tempature, in fact on a couple of tests it increased the tempature about 10 degrees. I have seen many explainations, but when I raced for HD they painted the original XR750 aluminum test cylinders black.

Have fun,
Quenton
EZ Motorbike Company
 
Hi Egor,
99% of the time I use head temperature [no paint]as the reference. I have checked carburetor temperature, exhaust temperature, crankcase temperature, and cylinder temperature, both fixed sensors and infrared. For a short time I even checked vacuum, oil pressure [crankcase] and oil temperature. I have had Whizzer motors run above 650 degrees and some that run under 475 degrees. I have seen pistons raise or lower the operating temperature. I have seen different brands of oil run different temperatures. I have tested spark plugs that raise or lower the temperature [all NE motors using the NGK C7E sparkplug run hotter than a head fixed to use the NGK C7HSA]. Please don't think I suggest heat ranges control temperature, just plugs that are too long cause problems.



Let me start more puzzles for you. Which is better a smooth intake port or a rough version. Which produces more usable power a short fat intake or a long skinny version?
What are the advantages of an oversquare motor compared to a square or under square motor.
The preceeding questions are the main reason my Whizzer motors exceed 8000 RPMs and do it rather quickly. The answers to the questions also explain why my 4 stroke Ducati Desmo singles could out rev most 2 strokes on the race track.
Over the 15 years I raced I watched many theories fall by the side because of proven results. For years I couldn't understand why my XR750 was able to win so much against large sums of money and multi cylinder motors. One day I discovered how important USABLE power really is. A 450 Ducati Desmo was dropped off for me to test, and after spending almost all day at the track, and every bike there was "dusting me off", in anger I quickly shifted all 5 gears, and discovered the problem. I hadn't yet learned about usable power, however when I discovered I wasn't going to make the corner because I was well above 100 MPH, I soon learned the true meaning.
The real magic is in the details, not what someone thinks is better on a computer or someones theory. In 2005 I was told a Whizzer motor won't produce enough vacuum to lift the fuel from the main jet on a 26 MM carburetor [btw I have already used a 29 MM Ducati carburetor on one of my Whizzer test motors and it works great]. In 2006 I was told the exhaust pipe on a single cylinder flat head motor won't make much difference in power [I went 3 MPH faster by just changing the pipe], in 2007 I was told no flathead Whizzer could outperform a OHV Whizzer [want to see my thropies?], in 2008 I was told a Whizzer flat head motor couldn't turn any where near 8000 RPMs [try 8820 in 150 feet].
Have fun trying to figure which side of theory really works and which side doesn't.

Quenton,
EZ Motobike Company
 
Quenton, Thanks For Sharing. I Raced Late Model Dirt Track For 25 Yrs. Getting 100 % Out Of What You Have Is Important. Ron
 
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