Firebird... looking ahead.

[silverbear]

Pictured below are three bikes. One is an Elgin step through about the same year as the one in the Rustoration thread which burned. I think it's around a 1941. the one in the picture is not my bike. I have one in Minnesota of a similar color also with a rear rack, but older, a 1934. Pertinent to this thread is the frame design. The black bike is a 1950 Schwinn Panther and the blue bike is a Worksman. The three bikes were worked on last summer and are in Minnesota. Eventually the Elgin will get a behind the seat tank juice can tank, the Panther will have Pat's prototype "Motorbike" stainless steel tank and the Worksman will get a cylindrical tank covered in harness leather which will fit between the crossbars. I'm trying to figure out which one to focus on this summer as a kind of commemorative build to be called the Firebird in recognition of the truck fire which destroyed my winter's work and my efforts at coming back from this major setback. I won't have the resources to finish all three, but will do my best to complete the Firebird. I want to call it that because that is one name for the mythological Phoenix which died in flames and rose to life again from its own ashes... so it is a kind of symbol of rebirth or resurrection. My fledgling motorbicycle business attempt turned to ash before a single bike was up for sale. For awhile I was ready to give it up, but I have gotten much help and encouragement from my friends here and want to honor that with this build. I also want it to become my main ride and a more serious attempt at a bike which is reliable transportation so there is less need to drive a truck for a simple 12 mile run to town. It is going to get a stock PK 80 engine, maybe lightly ported, but pretty much left alone other than an expansion chamber exhaust and iridium plug. Maybe someday it will get Jim's billet cylinder. I want it to have a pull start since it will get the SPB shift kit and I'm guessing a three speed rear hub, although I'm still researching the options. It will also get a sidecar, probably made from a canoe section which is one reason for the shift kit to handle the additional weight and drag. The many hills here in Maryland restrict where I can ride if I want to avoid serious pedal assist. Having read about BarelyAWake's shift kit experiences and now Big John's, I think I need to experience this for myself. Hills would no longer be a problem even with the sidecar and I would think the life of the engine would be greatly increased. I understand that some frames lend themselves to the shift kit more readily than others. Barely seemed to think the step through frame could be problematic. I don't know which bike frame would be best for this project. I like all three bikes or I wouldn't have them. I want this bike to be special and a reminder each time I fire it up of the people here of this forum who helped bring the Firebird to life. I don't know how long it will take, maybe clear into next winter before I can get the parts together. If it is either the Worksman or Panther it is not going to be a board tracker attempt of any kind. It is going to be a old looking cruiser which I hope is also good looking, but mostly it is going to get ridden. it will never be sold. If it were you, which bike would become the Firebird? I want to be thinking of something besides the fire and what was lost, instead looking ahead and dreaming of something new rising from the ashes. Help me dream a little if you will. Which one?
SB

 

[Venice Motor Bikes]

I vote fer the Panther!

 

[BarelyAWake]

I'll vote the Panther too... provided you can get on it ok ofc.

When ya get the engine and shiftkit, there'd be no harm in setting it on the Elgin to test fit - it may fit perfect lol, I know little to nothing about step-throughs You might get away with not needing an extended front motor mount like so many of the ol' cruisers... only one way to see heh

As for the pull start... I dunno why ppl have said that the shiftkit bikes are hard or even just drastically different to start. The only difference is ya can't just "pop start" it with the rear wheel alone because of the freewheel. Which in all honesty I can't do with my non-shiftkit bike because it's compression causes the tire to skid anyway.

With the shiftkit bike (cold start) I simply put it in 1st gear and pedal with the clutch in for 3 or 4 revolutions to get some rolling speed, when the right pedal gets to the top I snap the clutch out so I've the full downward force of the right pedal crank - exactly like a kick start. Sometimes she's cranky and it takes a lil more pedaling (a lil cold blooded she is lol) but once it's turning over it's easier to pedal... it's really no different than the non-shiftkit bike.

When the engine is warmed up already it's even easier ofc, 1/2 a pedal crank revolution, right to top, clutch out, = vroom.

If anything it's easier to pedal start than the non-shiftkit bike... *shrug* However, if yer a lil gimpy and/or you've a pup & trailer mebbe a pull start would be the ticket, but ya wouldn't need one jus' cause of the shiftkit

 

[char56]

And another vote for the Panther.Love all three bicycles though!! That Elgin is very cool!!

 

[silverbear]

A little about the three "candidates". I've had the Elgin for a number of years and had put an electric pancake motor on it at one time which I did not like as the lead acid batteries on the rear carrier made for a mighty heavy bike. If I were to go electric again it would be with a pusher sidecar I think, but that's a long way off if ever. Anyway, the 34 Elgin has been in my possession for a long time and is the first bike I ever stripped down and repainted. As such, it surely needs to be repainted better before it gets rebuilt with a HT motor. Maybe black this time. The 50 Panther I found at the landfill last summer... a treasure about to be crushed. How many have gone that way I wonder? I have very little money in it thus far, most having gone toward an original rear rack and feather chain guard I found on ebay and this winter's purchase of Sportscarpat's first "Motorbike" tank. I was just thinking originally to put it together with a motor, give it a big price and say goodbye. But as time has passed I'm coming to really appreciate that frame. I had thought the Worksman was the ultimate frame for a motorbicycle as it is the "Humvee of bicycles" etc. and just about everybody's choice for board track replicas. I found my Worksman as a rusty frame on ebay, stripped it down and gave it a paint job close in color to the blue one they still sell. I already had a Worksman seat and a pair of heavy duty wheels from bikeworldusa. I had figured to turn that one, too, once I had the parts and engine to finish it out. I also confess to some foolishness and over optimistic poor judgment. I got this idea to start a little motorbicycle business and spent money on wheels and such I didn't really have, borrowing money from myself through the credit card. I know, I know, it is the worst place to borrow money. But I just knew I would be selling bikes soon and then I could not only pay off the credit card debt but be on my way with a little business now started and no longer living hand to mouth with social security. Turned out to be not such a good plan as I ran out of fair weather before I had any bikes ready to sell and then extended myself further this winter with the builds I was working on. This would be the summer now when I would sell some bikes and all would be well again. Not. The fire ate everything but the three bikes you see in this thread. I would strongly discourage you from getting too optimistic about selling bikes and over extending yourself as I did. Go slowly and avoid the credit card. Build a bike and sell it. Then build another and sell that. Don't do what I did, jumping blindly off a cliff into deep water. Thank God I know how to swim and won't drown, but coming back to shore safely is going to be a struggle. Enough history and philosophy.
Norm, I found it interesting to look at the men's frames once I posted them here. I had kind of thought of the Schwinn and Worksman as being similar since both have been used in board track replicas, but they are quite different. In spite of the reputation for the Worksman being bullet proof, once you get down to bare frames I don't find the quality of the Schwinn at all lacking in comparing the two. If anything the Schwinn may be superior. It seems just as sturdy to me and it is finished off better at the welds. they are both made in America, Worksman in New York and the Schwinn in Chicago when "made in America" meant pride of craftsmanship and quality of materials. Some of the reputation for the durability of the Worksman is the wheels and they really are wonderful. I had a used front wheel from fasteddy on the Elgin that furned and it was just super. If I could afford it they would be on every bike I ever build, but of course won't because it is beyond my means. So, in my opinion the strength of the two is about equal and I don't know which would be champion. Something i have noticed is that the Worksman frame is more utilitarian looking, very much the all business bicycle machine where the Panther has more elegant lines, pleasing to my eye at least. I can see why you like them so much and like 2door I wonder how you keep finding them. Another thing I can see is that there is more room for an engine in the Panther frame than there is with the Worksman. Take a look. I know that without the drop loop alteration on the Worksman that it is tight even for a HT motor which is small. I hadn't realized the difference until the photos were side by side. I wonder if there is room iin the Panther for a four stroke, not that I like the looks of them much. If it sounds like I'm also voting for the Panther I'm not as I will wait for other input and will need to be sure that I really can manage mounting the men's bike. If I can tilt the bike toward me and the seat is not too high with nothing behind the seat other than a carrier, I think it would be alright. The question I need to ask myself now is if a sidecar would make mounting more difficult. As I understand it there are two schools of thought on sidecars... one is for the bike to be able to flex (tilt) independently of the sidecar so that you can lean into curves as you normally would without a sidecar. Others, especially for motorcycles seem to think that a rigid connection between sidecar and bike is best. That would be OK with a step through bike or motorcycle, but harder if you have to swing your leg over the seat and can't tilt the bike. So, I'm trying to foresee all this before making a choice. That is why I'm asking for opinions both for how it will look but also for the more practical considerations. Not that there is any rush since I will go slowly with this. But it will happen. There will be a Firebird.
SB

 

[silverbear]

Barely,
Does the shift kit change the amount of room needed for the engine... I know the rear mount is different, but does it require more real estate? The Elgin build of this winter was a plug in. I didn't have to do anything but use the mounts which came with the kit. It is the only build which has fit like that right out of the box. Would a pull start require mounting the engine higher for the pedals to clear the engine or are they wide or short enough already? I'm still not clear on the engine starting and probably won't be until I do it, but the downward thrust from the pedal high point... that's thrusting forward, as if you were propelling the bike by pedal alone? Why does it start the motor and not just move the bike forward? I'm a little slow with this and can't picture it. Does the shift kit interfere in any way with a side or butterfly type kickstand?
SB

 

[BarelyAWake]

The rear mount is quite a bit "different" lol... with a "normal" install there's that spacer block that comes with the engine kit - the shiftkit doesn't use that, it's got one of it's own that's a lil smaller... but then there's the mount plate thickness and the pipe clamps too... heck, it's prolly pretty close to the engine kit's spacer thickness but I'd hafta measure to see. Taking another look at yer ol' Elgin, I think it'd work out fine, even regarding vertical clearance which was a concern of mine. Still, it's good yer considering the Schwinn Panther 'cause even if it didn't work for the Elgin it'd defo fit on the Panther, it's good to have choices lol - just in case.

Pedaling to start the bike with the shiftkit does indeed move the bike forward - it really isn't any different than without a shiftkit except if you stop pedaling the bike will just coast because of the freewheel instead of turning the engine over (can't "bump start" - hafta pedal). Rest easy silver, if anything it's even easier to pedal start the shiftkit 'cause of the jackshaft gearing - the only reason I mentioned it is 'cause others have said it's somehow "harder" to start a shiftkit bike and I disagree wholeheartedly.

I dunno about the clearance a pullstart would need - I've not had one heh (I'd guess that it'd clear tho), I thought about one for my Schwinn... but after reading about the woes others have experienced with breakage I decided I'd keep it simple *shrug* Just the shiftkit would in no way interfere with any type of kickstand or centerstand - the only reason I went with the rear dropstand was the SBP expansion chamber exhaust & the way I had it routed.

 

[silverbear]

Barely,
Thanks for that, it is very helpful and maybe I'll skip the pull start, keeping things clean and simple. If I wanted to I could add a pull start later maybe. Good that the Elgin is still in the running. I've been thinking about that Panther a lot, partly because of Pat's awesome in frame tank, but also picturing it with a sidecar. I'm going to have to see how it feels getting on and off the bike with the seat set to what is comfortable for me. I think the Worksman is not for this build partly because there is so little room for the engine and it might make the shift kit more difficult to install. Besides, the Worksman is too new. I think we are down to two candidates.
SB

 

[silverbear]

I downloaded the installation manual for the SBP shift kit from their site and have been studying it. I realized that the instructions assume your bike is newer and has a derailleur external gear setup which of course is somewhat different that what Barely experienced with his Rollfast build. While most of the time I imagine these kits will go on a newer bike, there are those of us with single speed cruisers who also want to shift to another gear. I was thinking that it would be helpful to future builders of vintage cruisers who want this option, to have a supplement to the manual giving tips on what to expect with at least an example vintage one speed build. So it would be real nice if SBP and BarelyAWake got together on this. I can't think of a better person to give a kind of how I did it supplement. Hint hint.
On to a question. I see that the shift kit uses a plastic chain guard and am wondering if the kit requires eliminating or modifying a vintage chain guard. Does it stick out farther from the side of the bike and would thus run into the vintage chain guard? Part of the look I would want to retain is the old guard. Plastic won't do and would be totally out of keeping with the look I would want. Any thoughts on this? It would not be possible to eliminate the chain guard on the Elgin without totally changing the character of the bike since the fender skirt bolts directly to the chain guard and the guard itself is on the large size. That's why we need how to tips on the shift kit for a vintage ride.
SB

 

[BarelyAWake]

Flattery o.o



Truth is any motorized bicycle is unique, even two of the same brand frame will be built differently by different people - with that in mind I honestly think SBP did a fine job with their instructions. Once you get the kit near the build, when you've got it actually in your hands it's revealed as simpler than the instructions seem, once together it's a great example of form & function, much as the zillion lil bits and doodads in the box would have you think otherwise. The one major alteration that would need be made to an ol' single speed would be to make it a multispeed with a new internally geared hub laced to the vintage rim (what I did), or to add a rear derailleur & rear wheel ofn a 21sp mountain bike or similar.

Between an external multispeed and an internal hub, the only differences in building it insofar as the shiftkit is concerned would be the derailleurs - or the lack of them as the case would be with a three speed, making the internal geared hub & shiftkit build actually simpler than one with derailleurs... not that a derailleur setup is complicated, but ya get what I mean lol

In the end, there'd not be much for me to write about as there's fewer steps overall *shrug* but thanks for your kind words



The clear plastic chain guard ring does clash a bit with a vintage ride I agree - but it's just a matter of seeing if the sprocket's diameter will fit within the old chainguard, mine did with room to spare. So long as you've a chainguard you'd not need that plastic ring so that helps. The one ...problem is that the chain from the jackshaft to the crank would necessitate cutting away some of the top of the old chainguard... if you can't bear to cut up a vintage chainguard it could be a problem, other than that yer stylin'