End of an Era?

Discussion in 'Motorized Bicycle General Discussion' started by Rambler, Sep 2, 2011.

  1. Mike B

    Mike B New Member

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  2. GearNut

    GearNut Active Member

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    I hate to say it but your beloved Tanaka PF-3300 is a 2 stroke engine and is subject to the identical EPA ban that the Chinese engines are.
     
  3. wayne z

    wayne z New Member

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    So, will this EPA ban include the HF and HS 4 strokes too?
     
  4. GearNut

    GearNut Active Member

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    So far as I have read, it is only nit picking on 2 strokes.
     
  5. Mozenrath

    Mozenrath New Member

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    Is the output of 2 strokes really any worse than a 4 stroke? Is it just because they burn oil? And are all chainsaws and weed whackers now going to have to be 4 stroke?

    This is an example of a government entity overstepping it's bounds in the name of environmentalism. I'm all for clean energy, but our engines are little threat to the environment. I thought we were supposed to use less gas!
     
  6. GearNut

    GearNut Active Member

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    Yes, it is an example of what you stated.
    Our little engines are not really a threat, but the EPA is in the middle of a chest beating, lion roaring power grab.
    Have you read mapbike's post yet? (#60 in this thread) It has excellent links to very good examples of what the EPA clowns are up to these days.
    http://motorbicycling.com/f3/end-era-33317-6.html#post328787
     
    #66 GearNut, Sep 24, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011
  7. brett7777

    brett7777 New Member

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    The 48cc Chinese 2 stroke MB kits are supplied here in NZ by 2 suppliers, & retail at $215NZ (167US).
     
  8. andrewflores17

    andrewflores17 New Member

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    maybe the best way to look at this would be the closeing of one page in bike history and the opening of a new one

    the biger goverment gets the dumber they seem to get with them
     
  9. showcaller

    showcaller Member

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    It may be the beginning of closing one chapter and starting a new one but I think it is more discriminating than that. I remember the day as a sixth grader going to my school for some weekend activity some 50 years ago and there were three "big kids" probably 16, 17 years old with a 20" bike and a lawnmower engine mounted over the rear wheel. They obviously had just built it and the school afforded alot of space for them to try it out. I remember getting up close to that thing and thinking one day I am going to have one. The bike barely ran and really needed a hill, (which there were plenty of) to get going. I thought that bike was the neatest thing in the world. That afternoon stuck with me, as well as the time when our neighbor behind our alley built a go cart with an old lawn mower engine his dad had laying around the garage. My point here is that it didn't really matter if those engines were two or four stroke. Everyone involved had a blast, no one got hurt and much collective imaginations were at work solving all the issues that come up when you put a motor on top of the rear wheel of a bike and your parents aren't giving you anymore money to "fix" or otherwise buy a part needed!

    It would be real bummer if things are so regulated that it will cost a fortune just for basic kits, not to mention all the rest of the stuff needed to have a little fun.
     
  10. decoherence

    decoherence New Member

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    i had a very long post & decided to delete before clicking submit.
    i decided that because this isn't a political forum.
     
  11. showcaller

    showcaller Member

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    I disagree. It may not be a formal political forum but it is pretty difficult to avoid talking about politics when discussing the future of our hobby.

    Regardless... I would still like to hear what you have to say so feel free to send it to me via personal message or email, [email protected]
     
  12. Mannhouse51

    Mannhouse51 New Member

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    so the conclusion is???
     
  13. brett7777

    brett7777 New Member

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    I would just like a chrome cover kit for mine. Bikeberry have run outta those.
     
  14. decoherence

    decoherence New Member

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    thank you. it was my own fault. that i deleted.
    i originally wanted to respond to some things that people wrote. then after writing i see that i needed to explain the larger picture. then rereading it i see that some of what i typed, looked like i was arguing a position that person didn't position them self with.
    what i write below wasn't all what i wrote before.

    there is a problem with the epa. no doubt.
    there are problems with the government.
    take away corporate influence away & the politic financing & that will make a better government.
    what we see as problems were purposefully put in effect by the influences that benefit. either financially &/or to take our confidence or trust of government.
    it is all slight of hand.
    one thing i know is how to do mental slight of hand.
    i was the top debt collector for a fortune 500 bank for 6 years.
    THE TOP. over 3000 people. i never ever ever told a lie.
    i could tell 100% truth but i could still make a person form a lie in their own head that never came out of my mouth or implied.

    look up the fungus that can control ant's brains.
    the ant wasn't broken. it was the fungus that control the ant is the problem.
    the fungus has it's agenda which differs from the ant's needs.
    corporations have a need for profit. we have a need for a clean environment.
    then
    fungi is hard to kill in any animal because their make up is too close to animals that they infect.
    like the fungus corporations are now known as people. so they have more rights as a person.they are not just some what like what they are infecting. they are now legally a person.
    corporations don't go to jail or put on death row.
    i have been unemployed for over a year & paid more taxes than exxon. so they get all the benefits but not the problem.
     
  15. bairdco

    bairdco a guy who makes cool bikes

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    there's been rumors and horror stories of a 2 stroke ban in california for decades, but from everything i've read and everyone i've talked to, it only applies to watercraft, and the main reason isn't airborne emmissions, it's water pollutants.

    i think the current state of 2 stroke bicycle engines is awful due to the epa restrictions and the appalling quality of the only epa certified factory (Grubee Skyhawk,) with it's CNS carb, but i don't think it's the "end of an era" (which should be called a "flash in the pan" since it's popularity's what, 3 years maybe?)

    for one, a well maintained 2 stroke engine can last years, and their are plenty left here, new ones being imported all the time, and many other options available, from harbor frieght to gocarts to pocket bikes, there are many other engines, and i doubt there will be an outright ban and a gun-grabbing type sweep on our bikes, with faceless men in riot gear break down your garage door and whisk your bike off in the middle of the night.

    i think the reason for the scare is just hype, and as i explained before, gasbike.net is the only supplier currently legal to import 2 strokes, since they coughed up the 50k to get the epa certs, so they have a monopoly on them for now. everyone that carries the new Grubee engines gets them from them, so supply is limited, and prices go up.

    older sellers are dumping their stock, and many of them aren't buying anymore, because they were just in it to make a buck, and/or they don't want to hassle with them anymore.

    a lot of you seem to be getting a little too worked up over the draconic powers of the epa, but i suspect you're the same types who go off on FEMA, the ATF, Homeland Security, and every other aspect of governmental meddling that you find oppressive.

    and that's fine. don't let the man keep you down.

    BUT, unless someone has hard facts, documents to back it up, instead of heresay and speculation, i don't think we have much to worry about with our little glorified moped motors.

    besides, the world's gonna end next year december, so what's everyone so worked up about?
     
  16. decoherence

    decoherence New Member

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    i agree 100% with bairdco.
    2 stroke rumours have been flying around since i can EVER remember.
     
  17. Mozenrath

    Mozenrath New Member

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    I'm sure there have been rumors for a long time, but then why have most of the distributors all of a sudden jacked up prices or claiming "out of stock"?
     
  18. brett7777

    brett7777 New Member

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    Basically, it's a conspiracy, organized between the government, the FBI, CIA, & Area 51.
    There hasnt been so much to do since Bin Laden was tracked down, so they have been focussing their efforts on 2 stroke motors for motorised bicycles.
    Of course this is all top secret & hush hush, so don't tell anyone, but you heard it first here.
    You can thank me later for letting you in on this highly confidential & sensitive information.
    I expect we will see a full investigation soon on TV on 60 minutes.
     
  19. Mozenrath

    Mozenrath New Member

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    Nobody is claiming that it's a conspiracy. Government organizations do things for reasons. People enjoy keeping their jobs, and it wouldn't surprise me to find that a government organizations did things like putting restrictions on those rednecky oily 2 stroke engines on chainsaws and lawn mowers because it makes it look like they're doing a good work. I don't find your parody particularly amusing.
     
  20. Dagwood

    Dagwood New Member

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    for a look at the documents..try here.:
    Nonroad Spark-Ignition Engines 19 Kilowatts and Below, Recreational Engines and Vehicles, and Marine Spark-Ignition Engines -- Evaporative Emission Standards | Emission Standards Reference Guide | US EPA

    and THIS is just the page on the fuel line.
    For those who are not a quick study..keep in mind, when reading the EPA's regs ..that class 1 non-handheld offroad sparkingnited means less than 225cc's...and class 2 means larger than..OK..now you see by the above chart that the current implementation of the evaporative emmissions (which means fuel vapors NOT exhaust smoke) the the current 2011 regs are demanded of larger than 225cc engines..and begining in 2012, class 1 engines, 225cc and below..will be subject to these same regs.
    ALSO keep in mind this has nothing to do with the exhaust ..it is the evaporative emmissions...it basically men...just the smell...thats right...vapors.
    Fuel caps...gaskets fuel tanks, fuel lines . fuel valves and all fuel system components are under this scrutiny today on engines above 225ccs and in 3 months all the rest of the smaller engines will be also.
    The standards set forth here require that you cannot use a carb with a vented bowl..(yea, try making that work at home)..and to comply we have had to put complete vapor recovery systems on all our engines, complete with carbon cannisters for vapor filtration and a bunch of hoses to ensure either while sitting still, not running, or running at max rpm, no vapors can escape. This has been the most challenging development we have undertaken to comply with EPA regs. The continued increase in the specification each year..(see EPA chart) also means that what we build this year..wont comply with next years regs, and we MUST re-certify every year to maintain compliance. For you non-manufacturing types..this means we have to expense the development into each years production. This is the main reason I have customers deleting products from their lineup, because they dont believe the public will pay the prices that will be needed for them to do this.
    As a side note of fact..since I started this thread..I have recieved a copy of a compliance certificate from one of my customers, so we can resume shipping him engines..I got it last week..(3rd week on sept 2011). He began the application process on jan 5th. They already had the machine built to specs..it was just the application process he started. took 9 months to get his number for his label..and it expires on dec 31st this year..and needs to be re-applied for begining jan 1st next year, for next years label.

    now..to see what it cost a manufacturer if they are NOT in compliance wit the PAPER work..

    07/28/2011: Caterpillar Inc. to Pay $2.55 Million to Resolve Clean Air Act Violations

    OR:
    to see what it cost if you get caught selling non-compliant engines on the market..

    02/28/2011: PowerTrain to Pay $2 Million for Selling Thousands of Engines that Failed to Meet Clean Air Act Standards / Settlement will reduce emissions that cause smog and respiratory issues by more than 4,500 tons

    This should get you started and looking up the FACTS....if it interests you. These regulations have nothing to do with 2 stroke or 4 stroke..exhaust gas, but fuel systems on all gas powered engines..
     
    #80 Dagwood, Sep 26, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2011

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