Breather

Discussion in 'Whizzer Motorized Bicycles' started by OG-Whizzerdude, Nov 29, 2011.

  1. OG-Whizzerdude

    OG-Whizzerdude New Member

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    My hot rod NE5 blowes out all its oil. I'm told this can be fixed with a tall breather set up from hardware parts. What is the best fix for this?
    Thanks, Jim
     
  2. dmb

    dmb Active Member

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    jim on my whizzers the breather tube is up by the seat with what looks like a pcv at the end
     
  3. OG-Whizzerdude

    OG-Whizzerdude New Member

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    That is sort of the way mine is too. Black rubber hose with a screen in the end. That is where all the oil blows out. I've seen what is called a tall breather on e-bay. It looks like a canister or something. Debbie at Whizzer USA said they can be made from hardware store parts but she didn't say how or what.
    Thank,s Jim
     
  4. dmb

    dmb Active Member

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    8oz of 40 wt is all you need. i don't know but you should not have that kind of blowby. could be too much oil or to lite like 10-40wt i think mason man [ray] had a problem with too many oil holes in the piston. pm him he's always willing to help and knows alot more than i do about whizzers. [i think he has 100 of them]
     
  5. OG-Whizzerdude

    OG-Whizzerdude New Member

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    Thanks for the info Dmb. Quenton built the engine for me a few years ago. I asked him to do everything he could to make it go fast. He did, I have no complaints there. The thing is scary at full throttle. At the end of a 50 mile ride there was maybe an oz left in the case. I'm thinking it has a little compression on the down stroke forceing the oil out of the tube. I need to figure out how to recover it so that it drains back into the case.
     
  6. dmb

    dmb Active Member

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    yea 1 oz could be hard on the rod bearing. maybe a second breather off the side cover to releave crankcase pressure thats trying to push all the oil out. [my subaru at 20 lbs boost trys to do the same thing]
     
  7. OG-Whizzerdude

    OG-Whizzerdude New Member

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    Sounds like that would work. There is definitely too much pressure in there. The oil blows out of the breather tube and gets all over me and the bike.
    I have the same problem with my other Whizzer. On that one I used ¼” sprinkler drip tube and ran it under the rear fender along with the wires and it drips off the tip of the fender. No mess that way but I have to keep a close eye on the oil level. I can’t do that on the hot rod because the rear fender is chopped.
    Today I’m thinking if I used some kind of canister with holes in the top and a felt filter inside to keep the oil from blowing through the holes and hooking the breather tube to the bottom. The oil should drain back into the case at low RPM that way. I just wonder where the oil would be at full throttle. I need to get this resolved before the Grange race in April. I missed the last one and I really want to race this thing.
    Thanks to Quenton, this is the fastest Whizzer I’ve ever been on.
     
  8. mason_man

    mason_man Member

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    Hi OG-Whizzerdude, have you tried 2 oz. of Lucas heavy duty oil stabilizer with 4 oz. of 40 wt. oil. I've used this since 1999. I also use 100 octane gas from 76. does your cylinder have the air oil seperator that Quenton develope. none of my whizzers use anything but the rubber hose, no oil purging, one has the 22mm carb with 85 main jet and 26mm carb with 125 main jet.i'll post some pics of the air oil seperator with a WC-1 and NE.


    Ray
     

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  9. dmb

    dmb Active Member

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    have you ran this problem past quenton? i'm sure he's had this happen before. the breather/catch tank is a good idea, but the oil needs to be in the motor to help cooling and of course oiling. puke tanks have been around forever but you cant run a dry sump with out a oil pump that i know of.excluding total loss oil system. good luck dennis nice pic's ray.
     
    #9 dmb, Dec 4, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2011
  10. Quenton Guenther

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    The problem is due to a poor design and the crankcase can't vent correctly. None of my current collection of bikes blow oil out. When I first started increasing the RPMs the pressure built up and could empty the crankcase in about 15 miles at full throttle.

    The vintage motors had a cavity at the upper rear of the crankcase and a breather to reduce the pressure. When the new edition motor was designed........some idiot in Taiwan didn't understand the theory of liquid pressure. He thought reducing the size of the cavity would help the case vent, but in fact it made the pressure very high.

    When the NE cylinder was developed a hole was placed at the base of the tappet cavity and now allows the crankshaft to sling the oil directly into the chamber. It doesn’t take long to fill the area and start pumping the oil out the vent hose. Once the oil starts to vent it creates a siphon effect and can purge the entire crankcase in a short period of time.

    I have developed many fixes over the last several years, and the Taiwan vendor reproduced some, but he always had to put his "spin" on the concept and always managed to goof it up.

    The object is to separate the air from the oil, and have the oil return to the crankcase.

    Here are all the fixes.........First the hole in the base gasket must be reduced. I use a WC-1 gasket and cut a slot to open only half of the hole, reducing the amount of oil sprayed into the tappet cavity. I also make a special aluminum tube to make the oil hit the top of the lifter cavity [approx. 1/8" from the top]. I then drill 2 small holes at the base of the tube to allow the oil to drain back into the crankcase. The last and most effective fix is to make an external breather. The external vent should be 6" long and 1" O.D. You can use PVC tubing and glue to make the cylinder. Install a nipple at the bottom of the tube and attach the hose from the compression release cover [used on the NE motors]. If you have the WC-1 cover, drill and tap it to install a fitting to attach the hose. Next fill the tube with COURSE pot scrubber material [don't use steel wool as the vendor in Taiwan did]. Next install a PCV valve in the top of the tube to cause it to pulse. The pulsing causes the air and oil to separate and allow the air to escape.

    It is also important to note the vintage motors had cam ground pistons and were NOT round. The round piston on the new edition motors causes "blow-by", but can be controlled by the breather system.

    I guess I will need to start making breathers to help solve the problem.

    Have fun,
     

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  11. jbcruisin

    jbcruisin Active Member

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    Here's mine. it's not fancy but it works.


    [​IMG]
     
  12. OG-Whizzerdude

    OG-Whizzerdude New Member

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    Quenton it is always nice to hear from you. I just want to thank you again for building that motor for me. I feel like the Whizzer king whenever I ride it. It is so much faster than my other one so the wife gets to ride the old one. I have the same problem with both bikes and now I know how to fix it, I think.
    I have two Whizzers a yellow one and a blue one. I put an NE top end on the yellow one along with your mushroom lifters and your adjustment instructions. It is a much stronger bike now and it is much faster than before. Thanks for that too.
    There is another race planned for April. I missed the last one and I’m still kicking myself. I really want to be ready for the next race. The blue bike with your engine in it is one fast bike. I just need to keep the oil in the crankcase. If you get around to making up some of those breathers I would like to get two of them. Your work is so much better than mine I would just be more comfortable running your stuff. When I got those lifters from you they looked like jewelry. I showed them to my wife. She said they would make nice ear rings but a little too heavy for that so I put them in the bike, much better idea.
    I’m having trouble starting the hot rod right now. I let my great nephew ride it a few months ago and I forgot to run the carb empty. It has been sitting for awhile with gas in the carb and is probably gummed up. I think that would be a good time to re-jet it for the race. I’m at 267’ elevation and the track is over 3000’. Any suggestions? On the jet size. I don’t remember what jet you put in my carb but it runs like a rabbit around here.
    I’m going to try to make one of those breathers. The only thing that has me stumped is what to use on the bottom for a nipple to fit that hose. I chose to go with the old school bobber look on my bike. It has one of those aftermarket crossbow forks on it and I have to get that welded because I’ve seen to many of them fail even on bicycles. I sure don’t want to go over the bars right in front of God and everybody.
    I sure do appreciate your input on this. It’s been driving me nuts trying to solve the problem.
    Thanks, Jim
     
  13. OG-Whizzerdude

    OG-Whizzerdude New Member

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    Thanks to jbcruisin. A picture is worth a thousand words. It looks simple enough but what exactly is that metel deal on the top. I know I need one but I don't know what it is or where to get one. Is it the PCV valve that Quenton mentioned that pulses to seperate the air from the oil, allowing the air to escape and the oil to go home? You sure made it look easy and simple in that picture and I thank you for clearing up my head a bit. I really want to get it right the first time.
     
  14. jbcruisin

    jbcruisin Active Member

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    It's the PCV valve. you can get it at an auto parts store.
     
  15. OG-Whizzerdude

    OG-Whizzerdude New Member

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    That's good to know. Can you tell me what department to look in? I don't know what PCV stands for or what they are normally used for. I've never seen anything that looks like that and I have to get a couple of them.
    Thanks, Jim
     
  16. mason_man

    mason_man Member

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    The problem is high heat temperatures, if you don't reduce the temperature your killing the life of your motor.

    The hole in the tappet cavity was first done to the WC-1 to help lubricate the valve stem,this was a benefit in helping to vent the crankcase.

    In 2007 Quenton developed the oil deflector/vent, for my whizzers this is all i need.
    Since 2007 I have used heat coating, you can do just the piston alone, coating the top with a Thermal Barrier. The benefit is less thermal expansion due to a reduction in the heat absorbed.

    The skrit with a Dry Film Lubricant (reduced friction) and a oil shedding coat to the underside of the piston, this helps by shedding the cooling oil more rapidly. Aii this at about $60.00. Never having to add a catch can or losing your oil.


    Ray
     
  17. OG-Whizzerdude

    OG-Whizzerdude New Member

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    This is a whole new angle for me. Now my brain is spining. I guess I need to take the engine out of the bike either way I go to cut half the oil hole out of the WC1 gasket. I'm thinking if I did both of these plans I would really have a failsafe system and a cooler runing bike. Cooler running bike on a race track sounds like a good investment to me. I wish I knew where to get this stuff. I'm in a small town out in the booneys. Most of the parts on my newest bike were purchased online
     
  18. jbcruisin

    jbcruisin Active Member

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    It stands for "positive crankcase ventilation". When you go to the auto store tell them what you're doing & try to have the breather with you so they can find one that fits. Here's info on it:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crankcase_ventilation_system
     
    #18 jbcruisin, Dec 4, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2011
  19. OG-Whizzerdude

    OG-Whizzerdude New Member

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    "Positive crankcase ventilation" No wonder they call it a PCV valve. I will have to remember that. Yeah I will build up the bottom of it and take it to the auto parts store and see what the can come up with that fits with what I'm doing. What are these PCV valves nornally used on. That would be good to know to get the salsman on the right track, and me too.
     
  20. Quenton Guenther

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    I used PCV valves from a Ford Bronco V8, however it doesn't matter as long as you can install it in the top of the breather tube. The purpose of the valve is to "beat" the oil mist and cause the air to leave without the oil. If the breather tube is too short or too wide it will allow more of the oil to escape. The PCV valve works the same as the "clapper" valve used on the Vintage Whizzers and Cushman scooters. When using a "dasher" type oil system the crankcase pressure is normally higher because the rod is beating the daylight out of the oil and causing massive turbulance.

    The vintage Whizzer didn't have any problems with losing oil through the vent system, and in fact when vintage Whizzer elected to increase the oil from 6 to 8 ounces they simply made the breather taller.

    There are 3 major differences between the vintage and new edition motors which effects crankcase pressure. First is the cavity area, second is the actual breather and lastly is the piston design.

    In 2003, I completely gutted the webbing in the upper rear of a WC-1 motor and made it an almost identical to the vintage "300" motor. The oil flow via the vent declined, but not enough. I then designed and built a breather similar to the unit used on the later vintage motors. Problem solved, except at RPMs above 6200. Next I installed a racing piston and the oil stayed in the motor way past 6200 RPMs.

    The design of the piston has a major effect on crankcase pressure. The ring seal is altered by piston design and heat. If the piston contacts the cylinder on the front and rear skirts, and not on the sides it reduces friction [friction causes heat].

    Hope this information helps.

    Have fun,
     

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