Attention Tucson Riders!

[Finfan]

OK, heads up everybody who rides in Tucson! Over the holiday my wife and I were out of town. It turns out that one of the other guests where we were staying works with the Bicycle Advisory Committee that helps guide the regional jurisdictions on bike matters. One of the bits of information that came up is that soon, an item on their agenda will be motorized bicycles. The feeling I got was that they probably wouldn't try to ban them but some form of regulation was not out of the question.

Why are they doing this? Well, they have a metric they call "crashes" which seems to be any bicycle incident serious enough to get reported. Their guesstimate as to the percentage of motorized bikes in town is between 1 and 3% of the total bike population yet motorized bike crashes are accounting for about 25% of the fatal crashes. Add in to this that there's been about a fatality a year involving a motorized bike and the authorities are taking notice.

So there it is guys! You can slow down and try to follow the rules or you can be regulated out of existence. Your call!

 

[Dave31]

Hey Finfan,

There has only been two MB deaths in Tucson, both this year?

One was hit by a dui driver on Prince Rd. The vehicle driver was charged with homicide. And the second was in the downtown area when he lost control over the trolly tracks.

The only other serious crash I know of was last year or two years ago with serious head injures and again it was the vehicle that was at fault.

 

[city of angels]

i told you one thing if they decide to that they better come up with another way of transportation for the people that work late at night

 

[Dave31]

Well, we will just register our motor assisted bicycles as mopeds.

Maybe we should start a Pima County Motor Assisted Bicycle committee to help fight these people who don't want anybody to have freedom except in only the things they believe in.

 

[Dave31]

I cannot find anything thats recent? But BAC has meetings every second Wednesday of each month.

When: Second Wednesday of each month at 6:00 PM.
Where: Himmel Park Library, 1035 N. Treat Avenue

For more information, please visit our Meetings page, or call 837-6691 or 243-BIKE.

 

[Finfan]

Dave: They told me it was the second Tuesday of the month. Also, I've passed this info along to USA Motorbikes and Spooky Tooth. Anyway, you are sounding like you have a bit of a persecution complex going on. I really think we need to try to work with these people. They can make or break us and if you approach them being all confrontational it will only make them feel like they are doing a good thing if they get us off the road. If their numbers are wrong then show them why. Otherwise we need to start trying to figure out ways to improve MAB safety. How? I don't know, if I was that good I would probably have a high paying job somewhere, but it something that needs to be addressed.

 

[Dave31]

I took that meeting right off there web site?

But yes you are correct Finfan, we need to work with them and be respectful I am just upset and confused by there actions all of a sudden.

 

[Finfan]

Dave: I keep trying to remember that old saying about keeping your words soft and sweet because you never know when you will have to eat them. Meanwhile I got an email with much information in it from Bill at USA Motorbikes. I'm going to try to sort through it tomorrow, but I think if we try we can turn this into a positive thing. At least I personally think it would be a good thing if fewer people got hurt riding. Anyway I'll be following this.

Just an idea, but maybe we could start a brainstorming thread on the problems encountered with riding an MAB and what we can do about them.

 

[city of angels]

i have a few ideas for riding safer
1: helmet (require)
2: brakes front and back( if you have coaster brake have both brakes install)
3: lighting system (baterry operated or something that will be bright enough)
this is also including the rear
4: reflective vest (mandatory) if riding at night walmart sells one for around 7 dollars
this is only a few ideas i have since i ride at night from work to my house i am planning to get a vest sometime this week and i will let you how it works also i am upgrading my rear light now that i got some extra cash well let me know if this helps any

 

[BarelyAWake]

While I'll agree with the respectful tone - I don't think it can be called a "complex" if you're actually being persecuted, it sounds like they're drastically overestimating the actual injury/fatality statistics in their "professional guesstimates" - not to mention overlooking the "at fault" aspect

I would hazard a "guess" myself and suggest that far from any significant increase in serious injuries or even deaths - they're simply somewhat bored and have found a "new" aspect to heckle over and legislate, if not having an outright anti-engine bias as is not unknown amongst "Bicycle Committees".

Personally, I think a committee that attempts to regulate bicycle usage at all is a classic example of overkill and unnecessary lawmongering... advocating bike lanes and such is one thing, dabbling in law and restrictions is another entirely.

 

[Crazy Horse]

While I'll agree with the respectful tone - I don't think it can be called a "complex" if you're actually being persecuted, it sounds like they're drastically overestimating the actual injury/fatality statistics in their "professional guesstimates" - not to mention overlooking the "at fault" aspect

I would hazard a "guess" myself and suggest that far from any significant increase in serious injuries or even deaths - they're simply somewhat bored and have found a "new" aspect to heckle over and legislate, if not having an outright anti-engine bias as is not unknown amongst "Bicycle Committees".

Personally, I think a committee that attempts to regulate bicycle usage at all is a classic example of overkill and unnecessary lawmongering... advocating bike lanes and such is one thing, dabbling in law and restrictions is another entirely.

I agree with BarelyAWake's statement above and would like to say this when are we as motor assisted bicyclist's going to start our own National Motorized Bicyclist's Association, sort of an ABATE for us motorized bicyclist's.

Protect your rights which are guaranteed by the constitution, "Freedom is a much-abused word. There are essential freedoms -- free speech, free press, habeas corpus, religion, the ballot, to name a few -- that are worth fighting for.

I feel the rights of the motor assisted bicyclist are worth fighting for how bout you!!!

Here's a thread I started sometime ago about motorized bicyclist's rights and the LINK:
http://motorbicycling.com/f17/motorbicyclists-rights-organizations-16544.html

"BEGIN QUOTE,
Crazy Horse
Dealer

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Rockville, Maryland
Posts: 472

Motorbicyclist's Right's Organization's
Here's a thought are you tired of your Local, state & federal officials taking away or infringing on our rights to legally ride our motor assisted bicycles!

I know alot of us are tired of big corporations, lobbyist's and a government that is running amuck taking away our rights, regulating, and enacting negative laws which effect the motor bicycling community, taxing us to death!

Let me tell you about an organization dedicated to protecting and lobbying for our rights, many of us are also motorcyclists and have heard of SMRO's ( state motorcyclist rights organizations ), they fight for our motorbicycling & motorcycling rights at the local, state, & federal level.

Here's little more info:

State motorcyclists' rights organizations (SMROs) exist in about 32 US states, 25 of which call themselves "ABATE of (state name)," the rest going by various other names. SMROs advocate for a point of view in motorcycling that is, in general, hostile to mandatory helmet laws, required motorcycle safety inspections, mandatory rider training and licensing, and other similar regulation. Instead SRMOs favor optional or voluntary motorcycle rider safety education, training, and licensing, and greater public awareness motorcyclist safety issues. They also favor stronger penalties for car driver infractions such as right of way violations, or when drivers are at fault in accidents that harm motorcycle riders. SRMO activities include lobbying legislatures, letter writing campaigns, and paying for public service announcements and political advertisements. To carry out lobbying at the national level, a coalition of SRMO's created the Motorcycle Riders Foundation (MRF) to lobby in Washington DC. The SRMOs and MRF are often allied with the American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) on legislative issues.

ABATE

ABATE is an acronym which originally stood for "A Brotherhood Against Totalitarian Enactments" and alternatively stands for "American Bikers Against Totalitarian Enactments", "A Brotherhood Aimed Towards Education", "American Bikers for Awareness, Training & Education", "American Bikers Aimed Towards Education", "American Bikers Advocating Training & Education" with other combination used.

Concept

The concept of ABATE began with Lou Kimzey, editor of Easyriders magazine in 1972. He and others saw the need for bikers to organize to fight against federal, state, and Local restrictions on motorcycling. Some 38 years later, most states have a state motorcyclists' rights organizations (SMRO), either called ABATE or some other name. October 1977 Lou Kimzey and Easyriders were relinquishing the organization to the people attending the meeting in Sacramento.

In 1986, many ABATE organizations met at what became the "Meeting of the Minds" conference. This conference began the process of SMROs working together and eventually led to the founding of the Motorcycle Rider's Foundation (MRF) which is considered a Motorcycle Rights Organization (MRO) based in Washington DC. This group of SMROs acted to eliminate federal helmet law requirements, make sure motorcycles are part of transportation planning and ensure that motorcycles are allowed on all public roads.

MRF is an organization set up in Washington DC to watch over motorcycle legislation and to take action when the federal government has an agenda that would not be motorcycle friendly. SMRO's including ABATE work with the MRF and most have a state officer involved in the MRF. ABATE organization use the MRF to share state information, and get more information on a federal level as well as information from other states. Most SMRO and ABATE groups work with other (MRO) groups besides the MRF, such as the American Motorcyclist Association. Many ABATE organizations have websites, and most often list the other groups they are involved with, work with, from national MRO groups, insurance programs, lawyers, and rider training or safety and education programs.

ABATE was formed in response to keep motorcycle choppers, with extended front ends that were deemed unsafe, on the road; but now SMROs deal with a large variety of motorcycling related issues. Motorcycle safety training, health insurance issues and road engineering with respect to motorcycles are all areas dealt with by ABATE organizations. Many states' rider training programs are either run by or administered by ABATE organizations. ABATE of Arizona runs a Motorcycle Awareness Program or MAP.

ABATE groups also are involved in charity events like Toy Runs, food drives and first responder/EMT training. But ABATE is still a political organization exerting political clout through the activities of member motorcyclists. ABATE chapters exist in most states. ABATE is not a motorcycle club, nor is it a Harley riders only organization.

Protect your rights which are guaranteed by the constitution, "Freedom is a much-abused word. There are essential freedoms -- free speech, free press, habeas corpus, religion, the ballot, to name a few -- that are worth fighting for.

I feel the rights of the motor assisted bicyclist are worth fighting for how bout you!!!

JMO.

Peace Crazy Horse.
END QUOTE"

P.S. You can trust the gov't just ask any Indian, ( Native American! )

I hope this helps in getting our own National Motor Bicyclist's rights group started, specifically directed towards protecting, educating, and legislating / lobbying on our behalf !!!


Peace Crazy Horse, and remember this,
You can trust the gov't just ask any Indian, ( Native American! )

 

[Finfan]

It would be difficult to mandate a helmet law for MAB's when there isn't one for either Motorcycles or Bicycles. I really think the main problem is a combination of the low visibility of bicycles and the fact that we are traveling faster than people expect us to be. A safety suggestion I would like to toss out is that if you are using the kit chain tensioner then point it down instead of up. That way if it comes loose the spokes will push it away from the wheel instead of pulling it in.

 

[KCvale]

Well, since Tucson's state rep got 28-2516 passed back in 2006 that made it legal for us to ride with a motor assist and I am in Phoenix I certainly take an interest in this.

A few things come to mind...

First off there are stupid people that do stupid things, be it on a regular bike, MB, or motorcycle.
I seen an idiot on what had to be a 500cc if not 750cc motorcycle riding wearing nothing more than sun glasses, shorts, and flip-flops last week.

As Forest Gump would say, 'stupid is as stupid does'.

But as far as trying to keep MB riders safe from themselves there is one glaring thing not addressed.
Unlike a motorcycle or bicycle, most of us build our own and therefore they are kind of like an eXperimental aircraft.

Though like an MB X-craft have no building codes, they can and do regulate where and how you can fly them.
If that aspect even comes up we are sunk without a good response.

I have no thoughts on that aspect yet, I just thought it should be in the mix.
And as far as stats go I can't seem to get any relating to MB's in the Phoenix valley area.
All I do know is I haven't seen a single MB incident in the local news here ever.

 

[Dave31]

It would be difficult to mandate a helmet law for MAB's when there isn't one for either Motorcycles or Bicycles. I really think the main problem is a combination of the low visibility of bicycles and the fact that we are traveling faster than people expect us to be. A safety suggestion I would like to toss out is that if you are using the kit chain tensioner then point it down instead of up. That way if it comes loose the spokes will push it away from the wheel instead of pulling it in.

Well here is where I am confused finfan? Yes I understand some may not think we are going as fast as they think we are, but thats true with any bicycle. But 19mph is not fast, how do you explain how I am constantly passed by regular cyclist all the time? I am not talking about regular commuters but these Lance Armstrong type of riders.

I ride along Silverbell/Speedway/ Mission/ U of A area all the time and always being passed by these guys while I am going 19mph. If 19mph is too fast for me to be seen then its too fast for them. This idea that once you mount a assisted motor to a bicycle that you cannot be seen as well would be true for any bicycle and just not just motor assisted bicycles.

If anything the 19mph speed limit puts us more in danger then going slower when it comes to traffic in my opinion.

 

[Dave31]

persecution of Motor assisted bicycles? Absolutely 100%

 

[azbill]

persecution is the word we want here
I do agree that 19 is slow enough to endanger us more than non-motorized bicycles (that can get out of harms way without risking a ticket)

 

[Dave31]

When only looking at Motor assisted bicycles, and not all bicycles thats persecution plane and simple.

Can a Motor assisted bicycle be seen less then a regular pedal bike?

NO, not at all.

Does a Motor assisted bicycle handle different then a pedal bike?

Yes of course, but I can handle my motor assisted bicycle just as well as a pedal bike and I am willing to prove it. There are some that whether they are riding a pedal bike or a motor assisted bicycle will be sketchy and unbalanced. That has nothing to do with motor assisted bicycles. We are all different and some of us can ride a bicycle better then others. Just like I can outbalance you finfan on a pedal bike or a motor assisted bicycle.

Does a motor assisted bicycle stop less safely and longer distant then a pedal bike?

Well about a year ago me and buddy made some videos of me riding my cranbrook motor removed and pedaling to 20mph and then stopping as quickly as possible (Coaster brake only). Then we installed the motor and again up to 20mph and stop as quickly as possible.

We did this 10 times with no motor, ten times with motor. All stops were within a foot of each other whether I was pedal power and no motor, or motor mounted and using the power assist.

I have since lost those videos but as soon as I can get some one to video tape me again I will do it again to prove that.

Thats like saying we should have to have different speed limits for everyones weight. Will a guy/gal that weighs 110lbs. not be able to stop better then a guy that is 200lbs? That would be true for pedal bikes as well just not motor assisted bicycles.

For all bicycles
Speed limits
80-100lbs. 30mph

101-120lbs. 25mph

121- 140lbs. 20mph

141-160lbs. 15mph

and so on....

Any one over 300lbs should not be allowed to ride a motor assisted bicycle or pedal bicycle cause its unsafe for stopping....Ridiculous

Tensioners have been brought up...
Do tensioners make motor assisted bicycle unsafe?

Only on those who do not install them correctly. And what about the many who dont run tensioners? And what about us who have thousands of miles with no problems? If you have no ideal what you are doing you should not be assembling these bikes. Thats the responsibility of the motor assisted bicycle owner to have his bike working properly just like its the responsibility of a pedal bike owner to have his bike working properly and safely. Motor assist or pedal bike, there are things that can wrong with either.

Is riding a pedal bike vs motor assisted bicycle gonna keep drunk drivers from hitting you?

Absolutely not!

Is a pedal bike safer crossing rail road tracks then a motor assisted bicycle?

Absolutely not!

 

[Dave31]

I think a lot of this has to do with the recent crack down on bicycles and this Pima County Bicycle committee is just trying to push the attention of all this elsewhere cause it reflects on them how poorly they handle pedal bicycle.

 

[Finfan]

Dave: I looked through that email that Bill sent us and it seems like he has a pretty good handle on things. Like I said before, if I had all of the answers I'd be making big bucks somewhere. I've done my part and sounded the alarm. The meeting is supposed to be either in October or November, they haven't set the agenda yet. If I find out for sure I'll post it here. Meanwhile it is time for me to fade back into the shadows. Later!

 

[azbill]

it was a good thing bringing it into the light tho
thank you