$20 a gallon gas proposed.....

skou said:
i just wonder why a nation where the consumers are complaining about fuel prices still drives their disposabel suv's, instead the should learn from the rest of the world buy small cars (small cars today are much better than the yugo and also better quality than us made cars) and drive them for 20 years like all other places in the world
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You are quite right! For whatever reason Americans have a stupid desire to drive outrageously large vehicles. Because we are so spread out we are stuck with the need for vehicles but very few people really need those massive off road vehicles that never get further off road than the driveway. The Car companies are not entirely to blame, they were just making what we were buying. I also expect that whatever American companies survive will be making much higher quality, more efficient vehicles shortly.
 
instead of ethanol why not diesel most diesel engine can be tweaked to run ethanol, Gasol, Diesel, waste oil, vegetable oil and so on also a diesel is much more fuel efficient than an engine running on the otto pricipal (petrol engine)
 
unfortunately its still derived from fossil fuel which wouldnt make that much of a difference in terms of moulahs or $.. besides many people still own vehicles that run on gasolene, conversion to ethanol would be easier than most alternative fuels.. along the lines of what FinFan implied maybe ZPG (zero population growth) for a while would be the answer to ethanols problems!
 
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Exactly, the point of alcohol as a fuel is it is completely renewable. Also alcohol burning engines don't produce nearly the amount of the greenhouse gases. The blowby doesn't acidify your oil either. The blowby in a gas engine acidify's your oil. That's why a good thermostat is important. You get the water to 185* and your oil goes to about 230*. The acids are boiled off and routed thru the pcv valve to the carb and out the exhaust. With alcohol as fuel the whole engine will last longer. But like Hough said you need stainless fuel lines etc. to resist the water corrosion. And in very cold weather you may need a gas injector to get the motor started. Once it warms it will run on pure alcohol. Brazil made it the number 1 fuel to fix their inflation. They made a market for their farmers and good refinery jobs, distribution, etc. All our gas stations already have fiberglas tanks and lines. It's a natural fit and the oil companies can easily convert their equipment to alcohol. The world economy worked best when a bushel of wheat and a barrel of oil was about the same price. Sorry I'm ranting..

PS. Yes these engines would run on alcohol. You'd need a bigger jet and a squirt of gas in the carb to get it started.
 
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Sydneysider said:
unfortunately its still derived from fossil fuel which wouldnt make that much of a difference in terms of moulahs or $.. besides many people still own vehicles that run on gasolene, conversion to ethanol would be easier than most alternative fuels.. along the lines of what FinFan implied maybe ZPG (zero population growth) for a while would be the answer to ethanols problems!
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Nature has a way of correcting imbalances and I am afraid that if we don't regulate our numbers then nature will do it for us, and we won't like it when it happens!
 
The way I heard it last was that inflation to a level like that is the way to level the playing field between this country and places like Pakistan. Cutting wages to that point would cause a revolution (and with good reason) but inflation to that point would force everyone to change their life style. Ie reach the lever of a modern third world country. Which mean more motor scooter and fewer cars. That is the way a global economy works everyone has the same (dis)advantages.

It's like government health care. Yes it becomes cheaper as they ration the medical treatments. Yours and mine falls but the uninsured get access to the system that they already use through hospital emergency rooms.

Here is a good example of non managed vs managed care.

My wife had breast cancer. We had good insurance so they cut it out, then they gave her chemo therapy starting the next week, when the was finished it was radiation beginning the week after chemo.

Now I'm told by people who live in countries with managed care that it is cut it out and see if it comes back. Then radiate if it does, then wait to see... then chemo if it comes back again.

I'm sorry, for my wife I want one from column a, one from column b, and one from column c, all at the same time not spread over a year. She is all I have between me and starvation since i can't boil water.

I think that is what they meant by $20 gasoline.
 
The price of a gallon of gas is the same world wide.
What you pay in your individual countries is governed by the countries added taxes.

Denmark has a whole lot more social services that the US. and you pay for it.
Where I live in Canada gas is $4.12 for 4 ltr./3.8 US gal. We have a first rate public transit system and since I'm retired, the 2 knees I just had replaced didn't cost me a dime. We just pay as we go.

Steve.
 
Just a side note here. 1 Liter is roughly 1 Quart so 4 Liters would be close to 1 gallon not 3.8. At least I think it works that way.
 
The oil people already saw what happened when gas hit 4 dollars a gallon.
Demand dropped so much they lowered gas prices so they can keep on producing.
My brother in Law works for Toyota. Just came back from a family gathering in New Mexico recently he's from Arizona.
He drove one of them midsized Hybrids seats 5 with room to spare it's bigger than a Camry I forget what it's called now it's rather nice. Told me he's getting better than 50 miles to the gallon gas engine only kicks in when the batteries run low. 400 miles one way from Arizona to New Mexico and his tank read 1/2. It's a 16 gallon tank never needing to stop for gas only for bathroom and coffee breaks. So a fill up for him is good for 800 miles.
Yea the oil people did this to themselves. Now the only way to save themselves is to keep gas prices low so we can fill up our Suburbians and Hummers and not look at Hybrids so much.
But it's here.
And it's here to stay.
People still look at my bikes in awe at the gas stations.
But the frenzy is no where near what it was like when gas was at 4 bucks.
 
Finfan said:
You are quite right! For whatever reason Americans have a stupid desire to drive outrageously large vehicles. Because we are so spread out we are stuck with the need for vehicles but very few people really need those massive off road vehicles that never get further off road than the driveway. The Car companies are not entirely to blame, they were just making what we were buying. I also expect that whatever American companies survive will be making much higher quality, more efficient vehicles shortly.
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I really can't drive anything small like that. My son had a Fiero and I had real trouble climbing out of it. I literally had to stop drop and roll. It did not look so good at the gas station.
A Corvette is a little better and once inside I'm okay but some cars even with the seat all the way back I feel cramped.

Japaneese people are at the majority quite small so they build cars to fit them.
Germans are larger so they build cars for them. A 911 fits me quite well but still a bit cramped.
Americans are on the average LARGE due to all the steaks we've been eating.
So that's why we like the Cadillacs and the full size trucks.
That's how we roll.
 
> I would love to hear how raising gas prices at all, let alone to $20 a gallon would positively affect the economy.

The same way spending TRILLIONS of dollars (**,000,000,000,000) will create jobs.
What? You say no jobs have been created? You say that all of that money is unaccounted for? You say that at least, BILLIONS (***,000,000,000) of it have been given to executives for bonuses for causing their companies to fail?
What the crap!!!???
 
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Some misinformation in this thread for sure on ethanol. Ethanol takes more energy to produce by far than fossil fuels. Ethanol has a 1.6:1 penalty while petroleum has a 1.2:1 penalty. If you used petroleum to provide the energy to produce ethanol, you would use half as much petroleum ..assuming you used 100% ethanol as your fuel and petroleum as your processing energy source. This does really emphasize the value of fossil fuels and essentially the "freeness" and preciousness, but we need to be smart about these things. Saying ethanol doesn't acidify oil as much as petrogasoline or that it produces less net greenhouse gas, are not true statements.

Alternate energy logic is not easy, that's for sure. Brazil's advantage is sugar feedstock, but they still have their oil.
 
according to our fearless leader high prices of gasoline will result in more demand for alternate energy thereby creating jobs to produce such energy. That's what he said when asked about four dollar a gallon gasoline during the elections.

Me personally I think it is a conspiracy. Heck it always is my theory though.
 
>Me personally I think it is a conspiracy.

It absolutely is. Its been known about for decades. Its predicted in the Bible.
Don't sound apologetic for using the 'C' word. Conspiracy is a real word with real meaning. Conspiracies happen thousands of times every day all around the world. People that deny conspiracy theories are living with blinders on.
 
deacon said:
according to our fearless leader high prices of gasoline will result in more demand for alternate energy thereby creating jobs to produce such energy. That's what he said when asked about four dollar a gallon gasoline during the elections.

Me personally I think it is a conspiracy. Heck it always is my theory though.
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Sorry Deacon but ever since I started paying attention to politics (Nixon Administration) there has always been somebody who is recommending that you invest in canned food and shotguns, and the meltdown hasn't happened yet. It doesn't matter if you are liberal or conservative if the powers that be don't hold your views you will see them as the tool of the devil! The fact is that there doesn't have to be a conspiracy only greed! The people with money don't want the things they got rich with to change and money is what gets politicians elected. So until something drives the voters to overlook the slick campaign ads money will continue to decide the elections! There is no "Star Chamber"!
 
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Ok I don't sell oil but I did work as a chemical operator for 6 years and ran distilling columns. Alcohol fuel blowby does acidify engine oil but not to nearly the degree that gasoline does. Electricity is generated by water in the northwest and that's what heats a column to create the refining and separation layers. There's no fossil fuel used at all. Fuel grade alcohol is a side draw product. And I'll need some enlightenment on how alcohol burning creates the carbon monoxide that gas burning does.
 
What no star chamber... the who was that man on the grassy knoll... and what was it that fell in roswell
 
Junster said:
Ok I don't sell oil but I did work as a chemical operator for 6 years and ran distilling columns. Alcohol fuel blowby does acidify engine oil but not to nearly the degree that gasoline does. Electricity is generated by water in the northwest and that's what heats a column to create the refining and separation layers. There's no fossil fuel used at all. Fuel grade alcohol is a side draw product. And I'll need some enlightenment on how alcohol burning creates the carbon monoxide that gas burning does.
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EtOH actually does acidify oil faster than gasoline. Knowing a little bit about oil and (extended) OCI's with ethanol engines does help here, but it has nothing to do with one of my jobs.

I said "IF If you used petroleum to provide the energy to produce ethanol..." Sure a lot (but not all) of our power comes from water, but I was not just talking about PNW. Still, not free. And many places do use petroleum/NG fuels for the energy.

I never said "alcohol burning creates the carbon monoxide that gas burning does." But alcohol certainly does not produce less NET greenhouse gases.

I am NOT a Biofuel hater, nor an ethanol hater. But we will never get there if we don't keep it factual.
 
where i live gas is $2.50 per gallon,but i dont need it much anyway cause im getting atleast 180mpg. cigarettes are around $6.50-$8 per pack. milk is around $2.50 per gallon
 
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