CE clutch kit - adjustment headache

Pablo

Pablo

Master Bike Builder & Forum Sponsor
I installed the CE clutch kit with no real hassles. It's been working like a champ for me for many months. I recommend it to people all the time.

Anyway - I got the slant plug head last week or so, which increased my compression ratio and power output. My clutch started slipping like a mofo, so I took the plate off, degreased it, drilled it and wow it grips really well - but now I'm having a bear of a time adjusting it. Either it grips great but doesn't fully disengage (dies for sure at the push button position of the hand lever) and still is grabbing with hand lever pulled fully in - OR with just the very next notch looser with the flower nut it slips again (I mean it slips a LOT). It's like the long throw arm just is not moving enough.

Is there something stupid I'm missing?? - I haven't pulled the pin or messed with anything else. I want to ride in the worst way, so I just ride with it in the "grippy" mode, but it dies sometimes even with the clutch handle all the way in.

I've emailed Jim at CE (THE Manic Mechanic) to take a crack at it, but he's a busy guy.
 
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Would lengthening the actuating rod help any? Seems like that would give the clutch arm a little more travel allowing the clutch to disengage further?

I'm not sure how tight he held his tolerancing when he machined them, I know the stock setup has a lot of rotational slop in the arm so lengthening would be doable.
 
I've thought about that. I could have just been on the hairy edge when I first installed the clutch kit.

He supplies several lengths of rod because of different engine types and tolerances. I actually had to grind the shortest rod supplied to get it to fit at all.
 
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I messed with adjusting it and it's OH SO CLOSE. The biggest problem now is the silly stock cable return spring. It's just TOO LONG. I'm gonna see if I can find a shorter one, or cut some coils off the stock one. My pull, to be aligned straight in doesn't leave a ton of room between the engine side cable adjusting barrel...........
 
I keep getting closer. I cut about 1" out of the cable return spring. Still the same problem, but much closer. There's not much more I can do externally. Eat lunch, then I'm going in.
 
Pablo,

This is a simple fix.

When the star nut is turned clockwise to increase clutch pressure, the adjustment of the actuator changes too.

It sounds to me like you've got WAYYY to much freeplay in the cam...remember the 0-20 degree diagram that was in the instructions? It really needs to be set-up this way in order to work.

Too much freeplay in the cam will cause exactly what you describe. You will need a longer pin.

The arm should not be so close to the cable stanchion that it is bunching up the return spring.

If you have the correct amount of cam freeplay, (0-20 degrees), then you will need to remove the arm that the cable connects too and reposition it clockwise on the cam.

Jim
 
OK - but why would all of a sudden be so wrong? I had 0° freeplay before. Maybe it changed with clutch wear, star nut adjustments, etc.
 
Pablo said:
OK - but why would all of a sudden be so wrong? I had 0° freeplay before. Maybe it changed with clutch wear, star nut adjustments, etc.
Click to expand...

As you turn the star nut clockwise the pin moves away from the cam which will increase the amount of freeplay.

A minor adjustment doesn't matter...a big adjustment will require a longer pin.

It is also possible that you are simply overdriving the clutch due to the increased power. You may have adjusted the star nut beyond the point that the pressure plate will release in order to get it to stop slipping.

If this is the case you will need to tighten the primary spring inside the case to increase the grip on the pressure plate, and then repeat the whole process of adjustment again.

It is not the clutch actuator that is giving you fits...It is nothing more than a means to push the pin.

Jim
 
I came to the same conclusion this afternoon. Then I dropped the starnut lock screw and couldn't find it. So I bagged it and went and played music (bass) with my daughter's drum lesson teacher...relaxed now.....
 
Pablo, I too had a very difficult time trying to get my clutch to either
release or grab properly, just about the same problem you described.
What finally worked very well for me, was to remove the the whole clutch actuater and THEN I adjusted the star nut so it would not slip.
This removed any possible conflict with the clutch arm assembly.After
spending about 2 1/2 hours of frustration, it turned out real well. Of
course you need to have your bike on a center stand or wood blocks, so that you can grab the rear wheel and turn the engine over with the spark plug IN , to set the star nut. This might work out for you too, and it won't take too long to try it before you disassemble the whole
clutch assembly.
 
Pablo said:
I came to the same conclusion this afternoon. Then I dropped the starnut lock screw and couldn't find it. So I bagged it and went and played music (bass) with my daughter's drum lesson teacher...relaxed now.....
Click to expand...

Good call Pablo...when I get aggravated with something I walk away for awhile and do something different. :D

Jim
 
Pablo,

You say the clutch was fine, then it started to slip like a "mofo" on this new slant head.
Let's return to simple observation, clue, and result mechanical diagnostics...

When it started to slip and you wanted to adjust the flower nut;
- You removed the gear cover, did you notice and excessive "powder" loaded up everywhere?
- Now when you tighten the flower nut, there is no happy medium between "grip and slip" ?
- You tried different length pins, but nothing seems to work.
(make sure the pin you use is short enough so it doesn't actuate the clutch just by bolting on the actuator housing tight to the motor. An oversight that can cause the Slip with little Grip)
one last thing...

Are your clutch pucks round or square on this motor???

Diagnosis:

- Your clutch pucks have deformed and are worn down; Thus, beyond the usable working specs for this motor's design. Nothing can bring them back. Replace them. That's why you can get it to release but not lock; or lock, but not release....

As of recent, there has been a rash of clutch slippage in the Happy Time World. Some say it's because the newer motors use the new round clutch pucks and have less surface area than the square pucks. I say it is the material itself. Something has changed in manufacturing and the hardness of the pucks has been made too soft with not enough friction material.






...
 
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Blue Collar said:
- You removed the gear cover, did you notice and excessive "powder" loaded up everywhere?
- Now when you tighten the flower nut, there is no happy medium between "grip and slip" ?
- You tried different length pins, but nothing seems to work.
(make sure the pin you use is short enough so it doesn't actuate the clutch just by bolting on the actuator housing tight to the motor. An oversight that can cause the Slip with little Grip)
one last thing...

Are your clutch pucks round or square on this motor???

...
Click to expand...

1) No. No undue amount of "powder".
2) This is true.
3) No. I did not change pins. Why did you think this?
4) Squarish pads.

Blue Collar said:
Diagnosis:

- Your clutch pucks have deformed and are worn down; Thus, beyond the usable working specs for this motor's design. Nothing can bring them back. Replace them. That's why you can get it to release but not lock; or lock, but not release....

As of recent, there has been a rash of clutch slippage in the Happy Time World. Some say it's because the newer motors use the new round clutch pucks and have less surface area than the square pucks. I say it is the material itself. Something has changed in manufacturing and the hardness of the pucks has been made too soft with not enough friction material.

...
Click to expand...

They are worn, but I don't think you are exactly correct. I agree the material (old tires) is junky. And I will agree it's borderline shot. Brittle.
 
The adjustment of the clutch on these engines is a magical ballet between a few factors:
1. Flower nut depth/tension
2. Internal Clutch Spring Tension (which actually is adjustable externally and is the most important)
3. Thickness of the clutch material
4. Pin Length

When one thing changes, everything else has to be adjusted.

The Internal Clutch Spring Tension can be adjusted by removing the clutch cable stanchion from the block, taking a 3/16" steel dowel and inserting it into the hole to find one of the four square notches on the internal spring adjustment nut inside to lock it, and spinning the motor (with the spark plug wire off) to tighten or loosen. Running the engine backwards tightens the internal spring; running the engine forward loosens it. Another problem I can see by design, is that there is nothing to "lock" this adjustment in place once the adjustment is made on the internal spring tension; meaning, it could "float" upon operation of the motor by vibration either to tighten or loosen....I bet on the latter.


Take calipers and measure the thickness of a couple of your clutch pads.
Find a measurement from a new set of pads. Are your pads "mushroomed"
and/ or deformed at all ?

Like I said, it's a ballet,
So start by tightening the internal spring a bit. (Back off the flower nut first by holding in the clutch lever to release the pressure) Remove the cable from the arm and stanchion from the block and go to work.
A good start is 1 revolution backwards to tighten the spring.
-Then snug up the flower nut not too tight, by holding in the clutch lever in after the Stanchion and cable are reinstalled.

Remember: Every Time the Flower Nut Is Adjusted , The Cable-To-Clutch Arm Set Screw Must Be Reset

And lastly, loosen the clutch actuator housing screws and notice if the pin pushes the housing out. If so, take note of the gap where it stops pushing between the actuator housing and the block. This determines that the pin is now too long and will need to be shortened just under the amount of this gap. Just make sure the actuator housing gap is parallel to the block top to bottom, left to right to determine more accurately how much the pin needs to be shortened. Just play with the three screws on the housing and go by feel. You will know when you got pin length right when there is ever so slight of and outward push from the pin to the actuator housing just before the housing snugs up to the block.

Now, if after all of this the housing doesn't push out at all, or the arm has to swing waaaaay in to operate, or doesn't operate at all. Then you have the opposite...The Pin Is Too Short.

(watch out for that ball bearing behind the pin that likes to fall out and roll under your work bench)

Then the ballet begins between the flower nut, arm-to-cable set screw point, and feel.

I like it where the cable is set just off of where the arm starts to tighten when turned. A good tip is to leave the cable housing "adjuster screws" at the lever midway, and at the stanchion all the way in. This allows you to dial it in and fine tune it to exactly where you want. Bringing out the cable housing adjuster at the stanchion tightens the cable without having to dilly dally with the cable set screw at the arm, and can provide a more minute ( my'noot ) (SP?) adjustment.

HTH


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Great POST!!! A summary of what I've been juggling in my small brain.

First thing when I have time - I will indeed mic the pads.
 
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