3 shoe clutch issues

GoldenMotor.com

magrider

Member
Aug 24, 2010
511
1
16
OrangeCounty, CA
When I’m racing on the track the clutch fully engages and the correct RPM that I want. After 4 laps the clutch starts to engage earlier and takes longer to fully engage waiting for the RPMs to rise, thus I slow down. After 10 laps clutch is engaging way to early, barely will reach full engagement, I’ve lost time and I just go to the pits.

I take the clutch apart, add a shim, and it starts all over again. I don’t know if I should shim the clutch more to find a happy balance, or try lighter or heavier clutch oil? I’m using Maxima MTL 80wt.

This bike is for racing only, h2o 11hp, which I’m full throttle most of the time or heavy braking trying to keep up. I want to get this clutch working properly before I spend $400 on a new Tomar clutch. I need insight, suggestions, just plain old help.
 

Goat Herder

Gutter Rider
Apr 28, 2008
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With the equivalent across town on up hill , down hill and sideways of what your 4 laps must represent? Easily with out any issues when it is set up perfect for me. No problemy..

Mine never worked for me from what I think is a true absolute racers prospective unless it was just set up perfect the day I did it or had settled in some from debris build up etc in the bevel washers slightly raising it's stall.

I do think I can get a flawless race day out of it tho that really depends on perfect voodoo:p and I do weigh about 250.. Honestly thinking Tomar myself for a race.. They are more easily set up I think? Mebbe?

From what I gather the Tomar never changes it's personally during a good racing heat soak.

I tend to set up mine a little too tight ''early stall'' and drive in town over a two month time period watching my stall creep up again until I feel the stall has gone up too high. Then cleaning debris out of the stacks, rinses and repeats..changing my oil once a month with every day riding.

Over that two month period some days are dead on freaky hot rod perfect and sometimes heat soak personalty takes place when observing. My take rarely absolutely race form perfect for me but drivability friendly as all get go in the city.:)

It hovers on what I think is flawless with some heat-soak personality tho depending on the nature of my stacks.. Mine only worked the best it ever has since doing some miner modifications. While honestly do love it just the way mine is ATM really with no complaint at all. For going all out racing well IMHO and experience ..To save you time and frustration you may just want to go to the Tomar??

They call it the hole shot for a reason lol.

Never tried one but have read up on them and have become very impressed with how easy and simple they are to adjust from a racers view.

IME shimming out the stones on mine to be close to the bell as possible,the shims taking out slack,making the stones sit square and flush as possible . This made a big difference for me and is the only time I was finally happy........

Then shimming out re-timing etc on my stacks was a little time consuming but not all that impossible. The road map on that one depends on how clean the stacks are/the nature of the washers verses stainless over carbon steel in a heat-soak setting..

There will no doubt be less frustration with the Tomar and I think that is where I would place my own best poker bets to have cutting edge perfection the easiest achieved for what you are asking.. It is a racing clutch designed around racing. American made which is pretty nice.


How ever something I have never tried was the stainless steel bevels. Those have a temperament more consistent than the carbons ones. Under duress of heat-soak they will maintain their tension better through out their entire spring stroke..where a carbon one would have collapsed more early.

Have liked the way my carbon ones work in the city driving here so never tried the stainless. Curiosity has me on it tho for a racing prospective?

Also a trick I came up with was filing the inside of my stone cavities slightly to prevent bevel stack rub. In some cases I had observed groves forming. So far always split the difference and it has been OK. Then my washers stacks stay clean over a two month time period.

While my clutch will in my experience will run forever for me with periodic maintenance in the city well .....Tomar?
 
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magrider

Member
Aug 24, 2010
511
1
16
OrangeCounty, CA
I am using the Stainless bevel washers, and Saturday at the track I went through 500cc of MTL shimming the shoes once with .010 washers. I change the oil before every race, and clean the washers every time as well.

The track is flat but it was 100*+.

I want to race with the 3 shoe one more time, and maybe I can get it to work like I need. I can’t believe that the performance could drop off that much in a 10 min race. When I start the race the clutch is perfect, 4-5 laps in it starts to grab too early then I’m dead in the water.

Raising the stall isn’t the issue, the stall lowers
 

Goat Herder

Gutter Rider
Apr 28, 2008
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I recon you would have to compromise and set to stall too high? Then when it dropped might be where you want it? Right now my clutch if I take a trip clear across town on my way back the stall drops like you are saying on a hot day.
 

magrider

Member
Aug 24, 2010
511
1
16
OrangeCounty, CA
Maybe the issue is the way that the stacks are situated. [][][][][]//

Maybe [[]] [[]] [[]] // or something like this would be better.

use thicker oil? I'm also thinking of a way to install an oil cooler
 
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Goat Herder

Gutter Rider
Apr 28, 2008
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You never know with these clutches until trying it. I think the arrangement you will want might not fit?

There are two different shoulder bolts out for these clutches as well. That is where some of the different stacks than our motors have come about. Other than ours look stock [][][][][]//

On the KTM motors is a longer bolt with more washers for [[]] [[]] [[]] // type deal.. My thought is that you will want a longer shoulder on the bolt for a couple more washers to keep the right buoyancy so to speak.

Then it will do what you wanna do.. Prolly with a wicked higher stall progression !!

On my clutch I cheated with my weep holes and got it to work to get the stall back up high again off the stock size shoulder bolt and the ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) with my bottom washer deformed from the concave shape at the bottom of my bolt channel.. It worked great but I would not call it a racing clutch per say.
 
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Easy Rider

Santa Cruz Scooter Works
Jan 15, 2008
2,145
7
38
Nor*Cal
Steve,
To be honest, don't waste time with the 3 shoe anymore. My clutch hits perfect every lap and I didn't adjust it once on Saturday. Goat was right when he called it a hole shot clutch because it pulled me hard out of hole and doesn't slip once its engaged. Meaning all the power is transfered to the rear tire. I'm not sure if you got a chance to see the clutch when we took it apart to inspect the crank seal but it's really easy to work on. You won't regret getting one. I think that's the main reason my bike Is competive with the Big Boys.
 

magrider

Member
Aug 24, 2010
511
1
16
OrangeCounty, CA
I think I will pull the trigger this week. I know you have to run a spacer, so I figure you had to buy another gasket? do you recall the part # or should I just call Tomar? thanks
 

Easy Rider

Santa Cruz Scooter Works
Jan 15, 2008
2,145
7
38
Nor*Cal
I did a little research today with alternative Tomar clutch oils. Tomar Cool Blue runs for over $20 a quart plus shipping. (roughly$30/quart) I kind of semi flipped out on the price and lucky for me, no one had it in stock. I made a few calls to shops that sells Tomar clutches and asked what different oils I should use. One shop said B&M Trick Shift works okay and another shop said that some people have luck with using Trick Shift but others have not. I asked what they would recommend and they said Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF. At $9 a quart
I'm not sure if you saw this post but I used Mobil One this past weekend and it worked great!
 

Easy Rider

Santa Cruz Scooter Works
Jan 15, 2008
2,145
7
38
Nor*Cal
No problem Mag. Anything to help a fellow Morini Racer out!
Make sure you also order the installation kit as well.
 

blckwlfny1

New Member
Jul 14, 2010
128
1
0
new york
knock! knock!
can I re-open this conversation?
i need some advice from you italophyles please. :)

im running a denardis motor. Its 3-shoe clutch is identical to the clutch that the morini runs (in fact the demonstration cluitch maintenance video on the supplier's website shows a morini )
the problem is that it takes full revs for the bike to sluggishly get moving.
i also found that, when going up hill, it didnt bog, but instead revved good and normal....but the bike didnt move
im pretty sure the clutch is slipping way too much. -im pretty sure its not the gearing because although I am 230 libs and the bike is about 80 lbs,
with my setup, my low speed is equivalent to a 120t rear sprocket!
(low gear:.081 High gear :0.163)

So far< ive taken this guys advice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhOeIOF-3BU
and was in the process of switching the spring washers for a compression spring. I havent revved up the bike with the new setup yet, because i figured i would hit you guys up for some input first.

im not racing, just trying to make this bike a dependable almost-daily driver. its not that i need the clutch to lock-uip lower, its that i need it to have a definate locku-up when it does and not slip when it is engaged.
thanks

laff
 

Goat Herder

Gutter Rider
Apr 28, 2008
6,237
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You are not going to get away from doing maintenance on these clutches. Spent a lot of time and effort to have my three shoe slip like it was supposed to do and to get it to progress right for maximum power. True stall at about 8000 rpm.. Got a nice trade off too.:) It will cruise and stall out at a super ''low'' rpm to a totally peaceful simple 10 mph crawl on the stock washers. I personal like the bevel washers for the amount of precision that can be achieved.

The three shoe clutch takes time and taking personal notes in my experience and even shimming out the shoes to greet the bell. It will need periodic maintenance.


Your best bet is to get this hole shot clutch it can be adjusted to work perfectly much easier in your case for a lack of patients and perception.. Those springs will surprise you you may like them? I used them for a time and was pleasantly surprised in the beginning. However they wear out and loose their temperament over time you may see the clutch eventually not be a centrifugal clutch after a while lol.
 
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Goat Herder

Gutter Rider
Apr 28, 2008
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The new KTM engines for 2013 have copied this hole shot racing clutch. They are all upgraded with the hole shot clutch design straight from the factory now!
 

magrider

Member
Aug 24, 2010
511
1
16
OrangeCounty, CA
I am in the middle of rebuilding my brothers bike, then I will finish the rebuild on my Morini. Most importantly is the hole shot clutch from Tomar. One thing that I noticed is how hard Ken’s ‘Easy Rider’ hits compared to mine. I think it is due to the amount of oil that is run in the clutch, I was running recommended quantity at 350cc. Ken runs about 4oz. estimated. His hits hard, mine slips until full engagement. I will experiment with less oil this year.

The clutch plates are $35, haven’t confirmed it yet. Will also buy harder springs and more oil before the season opener. I will also drill and tap a hole on the side of my case for clutch engagement adjustments.


Just talked to Tomar and suggested ‘Ford automatic trans fluid’ as a less expensive alternative, they said that some racers use it only instead of the ‘blue coolant’, also suggested is 320cc


The 3 shoe clutch isn’t going to be used in this engine anymore, I have a spare 5hp air cooled that it will go in. hopefully I won’t have the same issues as before.
 

blckwlfny1

New Member
Jul 14, 2010
128
1
0
new york
....took mine for a ride today
after fixing the exhaust (no leaks now) and restricting the 98cc muffler
i have a noticeable amount more torque.
but the clutch still slips a little too much. the result is that when going up a good hill, the clutch slips all the way up. im sure this isnt good.
with my 2-speed gearbox, i have the equivalent of a 120t sprocket in low gear.
ill gladly invest in a tomar clutch if it grips better, but id hate to pay $350 on a gamble.
...or does anyone think i should go back to the stock washers?...any suggestions on a stack that will engage low and stick like GLUE?

:-||
 
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dmb

Active Member
Dec 4, 2010
1,354
3
36
lakewood ca
i suggest you read all of goats post's on his clutch adventures. [a 3 hour tour] you have a clone. go to headtrama's post on the cruiser board. sorry but they are chineeze clones where they may look like ktm's they kinda cheep out on workmanship. still i would not mind having one. merry xmass
 
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headtrama

Member
Jul 8, 2010
886
2
16
california
....took mine for a ride today
after fixing the exhaust (no leaks now) and restricting the 98cc muffler
i have a noticeable amount more torque.
but the clutch still slips a little too much. the result is that when going up a good hill, the clutch slips all the way up. im sure this isnt good.
with my 2-speed gearbox, i have the equivalent of a 120t sprocket in low gear.
ill gladly invest in a tomar clutch if it grips better, but id hate to pay $350 on a gamble.
...or does anyone think i should go back to the stock washers?...any suggestions on a stack that will engage low and stick like GLUE?

:-||
Before dropping 450 on a Tomar clutch for just a cruiser I would replace your washer stacks with some good quality washers. The washers that come in the clone clutch are junk . Also you might want to clean up the bores that the washers sit in on the clutch shoes . Some clutch material can get into them when they made the clutch and makes them stick .