Morini S6S Clutch help

[f1gopedder]

Hello,

I recently went to change the clutch oil to belray gear saver and noticed I have a couple problems with my clutch. First of all the spring thats on the clutch cover that engages the kick starter snapped in half. Is there any way to replace that spring? Looks like its pretty hard to take off and replace. Also, my clutch bell is super wobbly. I guess I shouldnt have been using 80w-90 gear oil from advance auto in it the local moped shop told me it would be fine. Looks like they really screwed me over. Can you guys please show me links of what I need to buy and how to install if possible? Also, since ill probalby be replacing the clutch shoes also can you guys recomend me a clutch so that I dont have to always be going full throttle just to go? I want something I can cruise around town with. This is on a big boy morini v6 scooter btw.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[f1gopedder]

please anyone ? is there any way i could just tighten the clutch bell?

 

[Goat Herder]

please anyone ? is there any way i could just tighten the clutch bell?

use different thickness thrust washers behind the bell and or get a new bushing. Betting just need the right thrust washer tho. My bushing and thrust washers have lasted forever now. .

Edit adding part#'s for different thickness washers to go between the clutch bell and the motor that will take excess play out of the bell when installed. F25-400508 is the 0.8mm F25-400506 = 0.6mm. These part #'s are from Herdan. I did not measure the stock one it its thinner then these two. These washers can be put in any necessary combination to set the end play right.

 

[f1gopedder]

Well do you k.ow how to take the clutch shoes off? In the video it looks like theres a nut but theres a gear holding my clutch shoes on

 

[f1gopedder]

ok im starting to understand this clutch a little better now. But I still have a few questions. The washers behind the clutch drum is worn which is causing the drum to wobble? Where can I buy the extra washers so that it stops the wobble? Or is it that I need to remove the washer to stop the wobble. Also, What would be a good stack for my clutch shoes for my big boy scooter so that I can take off and ride around instead of holding WOT all day. Do I need to remove spring washers or add some for this? And how the heck do I remove this gear thats holding on the clutch shoes? Do I turn it right or left?

thanks,
Mike

 

[Goat Herder]

ok im starting to understand this clutch a little better now. But I still have a few questions. The washers behind the clutch drum is worn which is causing the drum to wobble? Mike

The washers take the wobble out..

Where can I buy the extra washers so that it stops the wobble?Mike

From http://www.herdan.com/engines/

Or is it that I need to remove the washer to stop the wobble.Mike

This would allow the ability to only wobble more. A little wobble is OK. Too much wobble and the clutch might occasionally have a tiny vibration when briefly letting off the throttle.

Also, What would be a good stack for my clutch shoes for my big boy scooter so that I can take off and ride around instead of holding WOT all day. Mike

Depends on what gear ratio you are using?

/ / ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ''Example'' you can drop the RPMs by 7to 800 by just removing the .005 shim.You should have Two .oo5 and one .010 which should set the stall at the desired RPM.

Do I need to remove spring washers or add some for this? Mike

If you make the stack much higher '' Flat Washer shims'' and more rpm's need to develop to fill in the gap of the stones to grab the bell. The stall speed will go higher.

And how the heck do I remove this gear thats holding on the clutch shoes? Do I turn it right or left? Mike

Turn the crank nut to the right to come off..

I guess I shouldnt have been using 80w-90 gear oil from advance auto in itMike

The wrong oil will make the stall speed go up 600 rpms or more right off the bat out of your driveway! This will heat up the clutch pads and wear the clutch down faster as well. Not to worry these stone clutches are very hardy tho. I use Maxima MTL. my self the Belray will work too.

Since the wrong oil was in there, the clutch stall can go up from ash/sediment type looking? deposits inside the bevel washer stack. I did my own independent testing lol.

I would suggest cleaning by hand all the washers individually. This can lower the stall alone substantially.. If they are all gummed up? Dunno can't see them from here?

As for removing the clutch nut folks have different ways of doing it. I have found the perfect set of channel lock style plyer handles to hold my crank shaft still by wedging the handles inside my clutch. They make a piston stop for this as well. I would suggest the latter of these two approaches more especially if you are not very agile with your hands? http://www.morinifrancousa.com/accessories/piston_stop.jpg http://www.morinifrancousa.com/accessories.html


The clutch is on a spline shaft with this model engine so you do not need a puller. You might want to briefly read through this thread as well? http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=39993

This was one of my replies try to help just a couple of days ago..

Only 8 foot pounds max on the three clutch bolts.. About 24 on the crank nut..

12 inch pounds to ever foot pound.. Your torque wrench would be maxed out at that.. I don't thing you will need it. Most times myself use a small cheepy pair of chinese brand channel locks with the rubber insulators gone from the handles. Cheating with them I simply insert the handles between the shoes '' @ the metal castings'' Darn careful here! Do not get anywhere near the stones as you can chip or break then clean off! I would place a wrench between the plier handles and hold the clutch still whilst tightening or loosing my nut..

Been using ones like these can prolly find at Harbor Freight.

The second to the right from the left looks like them or the third one? Hard for me to tell from the picture? Edit: More thought the third one looks like the one !!

I have yet to actually use a torque wrench on my clutch. I have a fair feel of things from turning wrenches for a living. A typical spark plug would be like 15 foot pounds to give you an idea. . My worry is those three tiny clutch bolts some guy will snap them from trying to tighten them too much. Your wrench will be fine for that in lu of loctite.. .

Funny story I knew this big body builder guy one time and offered to help him fix his front brakes as he was in a financial bind. I gave him a torque wrench for his lugs nuts/wheels because the fellow was grateful and eager to help.. We quickly figured out he would have put every one of those lugs at about 160 foot pounds lol. They were rated for like 70 a piece.. Plus unevenly freaky tight, tightened lug nuts would have left him with warped front rotors in a couple of weeks..

I have re-torqued jug and head gasket/heads at one time on many of these small engines..Yes I personally with love use a torque wrench for that every time!

 

[f1gopedder]

The washers take the wobble out..

From http://www.herdan.com/engines/

This would allow the ability to only wobble more. A little wobble is OK. Too much wobble and the clutch might occasionally have a tiny vibration when briefly letting off the throttle.

Depends on what gear ratio you are using?

/ / ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ''Example'' you can drop the RPMs by 7to 800 by just removing the .005 shim.You should have Two .oo5 and one .010 which should set the stall at the desired RPM.

If you make the stack much higher '' Flat Washer shims'' and more rpm's need to develop to fill in the gap of the stones to grab the bell. The stall speed will go higher.

Turn the crank nut to the right to come off..

The wrong oil will make the stall speed go up 600 rpms or more right off the bat out of your driveway! This will heat up the clutch pads and wear the clutch down faster as well. Not to worry these stone clutches are very hardy tho. I use Maxima MTL. my self the Belray will work too.

Since the wrong oil was in there, the clutch stall can go up from ash/sediment type looking? deposits inside the bevel washer stack. I did my own independent testing lol.

I would suggest cleaning by hand all the washers individually. This can lower the stall alone substantially.. If they are all gummed up? Dunno can't see them from here?

As for removing the clutch nut folks have different ways of doing it. I have found the perfect set of channel lock style plyer handles to hold my crank shaft still by wedging the handles inside my clutch. They make a piston stop for this as well. I would suggest the latter of these two approaches more especially if you are not very agile with your hands? http://www.morinifrancousa.com/accessories/piston_stop.jpg http://www.morinifrancousa.com/accessories.html


The clutch is on a spline shaft with this model engine so you do not need a puller. You might want to briefly read through this thread as well? http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=39993

This was one of my replies try to help just a couple of days ago..

thanks for the help man. Is the .005 shim gonna be a flat washer? And Ill be able to tell the .005 from the .010 right? The .010 is gonna be a little fatter and only one of them.

 

[Goat Herder]

They are flat shims that I am referring to. Yes flat washers the rest are bevels. Folks have gone to five ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) // ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( // etc. Shoot I ran one with six bevel washers and no shims once. It is like leggo's lol.
Take away a ///shim leave a shim so on. The lower the stall the slower off the line. No one way is really wrong. Just you will need to find out where you, your self want it...

 

[Goat Herder]

What gear ratio are you running? I have a big ol fatty tire 24X3.0 on the rear 12 tooth front sprocket on the front and a 52 tooth sprocket on my rear.

 

[f1gopedder]

They are flat shims that I am referring to. Yes flat washers the rest are bevels. Folks have gone to five ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) // ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( // etc. Shoot I ran one with six bevel washers and no shims once. It is like leggo's lol.
Take away a ///shim leave a shim so on. The lower the stall the slower off the line. No one way is really wrong. Just you will need to find out where you, your self want it...

sweet man im super excited to get this thing going again. One more question. The washer that goes behind the clutch bell. Can I just pick a couple of them up from ace or home depot or lowes? I think I just need one a little thicker as the one in there is probably worn down or something.

 

[f1gopedder]

What gear ratio are you running? I have a big ol fatty tire 24X3.0 on the rear 12 tooth front sprocket on the front and a 52 tooth sprocket on my rear.

umm im pretty sure that the stock gear ratio on the big boy is 10/36. Im gonna upgrade the 10 to an 11 soon because I found one on ebay for 1 dollar plus 6 bucks shipping haha. Is it hard to change that front sprocket out? Id assume so.

heres a vid of the big boy and my goped check it out!!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9JH54nQ7Zc&list=UUVRGe50EPqhuoLP6uZeCS1w&index=1&feature=plcp

 

[Goat Herder]

sweet man im super excited to get this thing going again. One more question. The washer that goes behind the clutch bell. Can I just pick a couple of them up from ace or home depot or lowes? I think I just need one a little thicker as the one in there is probably worn down or something.

I have not had any luck stumbling upon this dimension anywhere locally. Does not mean that you cannot mic out the dimensions and look around on line etc.

umm im pretty sure that the stock gear ratio on the big boy is 10/36. Im gonna upgrade the 10 to an 11 soon because I found one on ebay for 1 dollar plus 6 bucks shipping haha. Is it hard to change that front sprocket out? Id assume so.

heres a vid of the big boy and my goped check it out!!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9JH54nQ7Zc&list=UUVRGe50EPqhuoLP6uZeCS1w&index=1&feature=plcp

That is pretty darn Kewl! I like it! Be careful ! lol

 

[f1gopedder]

I have not had any luck stumbling upon this dimension anywhere locally. Does not mean that you cannot mic out the dimensions and look around on line etc. That is pretty darn Kewl! I like it! Be careful ! lol

yea seems like a tough dimension to find locally. And thanks a lot man I appreciate it. I always wear full safety gear. This things like a freakin animal haha gotta love it!

 

[f1gopedder]

alright goat, just a few more questions. I took apart the clutch today and there was no roller bearing in the clutch drum. Is that normal? It was sitting on a spline and doesnt look like enough room for a bearing so im guessing thats for a different motor than the s6s. Also, when i took the clutch shoes apart, to my surprise all the washers were super dirty just like you said, so i cleaned them all. There were three flat washers closest to the head of the bolt, i ended up removing the middle one of the three washers is that the .05 washer you were talking about so that I dont have to WOT everytime i ride? It went one big flat washer then two skinny flat washers so I took out on of the skinny ones. Is that the right one? How much better will my clutch engagement be with that one washer now out of the question?

Also, are these the washers I need to buy to take out the wobble from the clutch bell? And how many should i get of each to be safe and which ones should i get out of the three?

SPACER WASHER 15X25X0.4
SPACER WASHER 15X25X0.6
SPACER WASHER 15X25X0.8


and last question, the spring that engages the kick start gear snapped in half and i foolishly pulled the whole spring off. If you look at this picture, is part number 56 the right spring i need to get it working again? The part number says that its the KICKSTARTER SLEEVE SPRING 2001 but is my engine from 2001?

http://cyclehuttktm.com/FicheFinderNew/Images/CycleHutt/trany4.gif

thanks a bunch,
Mike

 

[Goat Herder]

I ended up using two very thin washers on my last clutch. I only had some washers that were a bit too thick at the time it was very tricky and time consuming. Made those washers thinner till my play was right. Potentially brutal operation finding the right ratchet handle and very gently twirling them at the bench grinder, then sand paper.. Last putting the rough edges facing each other and not the crank or clutch hub.

In the end my clutch was a bit too tight and scared me a little. I got lucky it loosened up. Please use some intelligent discretion here.. As you do want to have a minute amount of play if set up right. Think perhaps of bicycle bearings for instance.

My advice get the thinnest thrust washers and you should be just fine, fine tuning your end play. With out the hassle I went through. It would be wise to measure the thickness of the washer you have for a accurate guesstimate in this equation.

As for your stall with ''better oil '' will grip more'' a clean washer stack that can properly compress under centrifugal inertia and a shim removed . I would venture to say you may have dropped things 600/700 rpm's for sure. Prolly 900? Setting up one of these clutches is a little bit of a trail and error thing. Different gear ratios work the clutch differently. So one fellows washer stack shim arrangement will not always work exactly the same for every gear ratio. It is a customized science to get what one individuals desired perfection might be?

One thing I noticed with the oil I am using my washer stacks stay clean now. When I experimented and had the wrong oil for this application that was not the case.. I do not ever clean them up now..

All of the S6S motors come with a brass bushing for a bearing at the clutch drum hub I have about 9000 miles on my stock one so far, guessing mebbe less hard to recollect at the moment? Just know it has been forever now.. and yeah it has a bit of play in it again. As of yet has no funny vibrations or anything it's smooth as silk!

Call up Herdan for your spring mebbe they are great folks there .

Might read here and see if this is what you are talking about? http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=13930&page=14 Last yeah I think our motors are older that year might be right? Not sure tho?

 

[f1gopedder]

I ended up using two very thin washers on my last clutch. I only had some washers that were a bit too thick at the time it was very tricky and time consuming. Made those washers thinner till my play was right. Potentially brutal operation finding the right ratchet handle and very gently twirling them at the bench grinder, then sand paper..

In the end my clutch was a bit too tight and scared me a little. I got lucky it loosened up. Please use some intelligent discretion here.. As you do want to have a minute amount of play if set up right. Think perhaps of bicycle bearings for instance.

My advice get the thinnest thrust washers and you should be just fine, fine tuning your end play. With out the hassle I went through. It would be wise to measure the thickness of the washer you have for a accurate guesstimate in this equation.

As for your stall with ''better oil '' will grip more'' a clean washer stack that can properly compress under centrifugal inertia and a shim removed . I would venture to say you may have dropped things 600/700 rpm's for sure. Prolly 900? Setting up one of these clutches is a little bit of a trail and error thing. Different gear ratios work the clutch differently. So one fellows washer stack shim arrangement will not always works exactly the same for every gear ratio. It is a customized science to get what one individuals desired perfection might be?

One thing I noticed with the oil I am using my washer stacks stay clean now. When I experimented and had the wrong oil for this application that was not the case.. I do not ever clean them up now..

All of the S6S motors come with a brass bushing for a bearing at the clutch drum hub I have about 9000 miles on my stock one so far guessing mebbe less hard to recollect at the moment? Just know it has been forever now.. and yeah it has a bit of play in it again. As of yet has no funny vibrations or anything it's smooth as silk!

Call up Herdan for your spring mebbe they are great folks there .

Might read here and see if this is what you are talking about? http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=13930&page=14 Last yeah I think our motors are older that year might be right? Not sure tho?

alright cool yea i think thats the right spring... i hope, fingers crossed. And as for the shims, are those i listed the right size? Im guessing itll be better to use the .08 then to use 2 of the .04?

thanks,
Mike

 

[Goat Herder]

You will have to cross that bridge? Measure what you got first..

I had another set of steps I wanted to share that thought might help as well? I always mark which direction my shoes came off from. Figured they were wear mated. Basically just scratched one side of the metal castings and hub with what ever I had lying around. I do like to rotate the bolts to a different place though as in my mind the washer stacks will gently rub on them in a different spot? Mebbe.

With a genuine Morini clutch The 3 bolts are bullet proof. The Chinese knock off clutch I have tried and it is sloppy all the way around. The metal dowels are machined sloppy into the hub making the bolt shoulders rub. A stock real Morini clutch like ours does not have this problem in my experience .. Mine to me has been very impressive.

 

[f1gopedder]

sweet man, just had another question. I noticed today that there are two needles on the side of the stock 19mm delorto carb. One is brass that i can twist by hand and the other needs a flat head to turn. What are each of these needles for and what are the recomended settings for them? thanks a bunch. BTW Im ordering the .6 and .4 washers, spring for the kick starter, and a new clutch cover gasket from the guys in pennsylvania that yall recomended called humbert or something like that. The owner was telling me about a bushing in my clutch bell that could also be worn down causing the bell to be loose, what are the chances of that actually being my problem?

 

[Goat Herder]

The brass bushing on my clutch came with spiral cut oil groves in it. For me this is my interpretation of how my wear is on it. My oil groves are still very nicely pronounced. These said oil groves basically only have so much depth to them. When my groves get a bit shallower then will replace my bushing. This is my take on it anyway.. ''Shrug''


The two needles one needle physically moves the carb slide up and down. This is your static idle adjustment. How high to have your motor idle at...

The other is a fuel mixture screw for the first 1/3 throttle or so. If you have any lag in your throttle response like it is not quick clean crisp, responsive. Then this screw can clean that up. Should be able to blip the throttle towards wot and have no lag in your response. Anywhere from 1 to 3 turns mebbe really depends on what idle jet you have in it from the factory. Can't tell you I don't live at sea level.. Betcha go 1 1/2 turn out and go from there?

Why are you messing with it is it not running right?

My carb is set for 6000 plus foot. A.S.L at about 1 1/2 turn out. In the heat of the summer I set it just a little leaner. In winter I go a tiny bit richer like 1/4 turn

All carbs come from the factory tuned for sea level for the most part.. You live at sea level?

 

[Goat Herder]

Here you go read up.... http://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/How_To_Tune_PHBG_Carburetors


'''Never turn in a fuel or air adjustment needle to tight! be very gentle with them as this will ruin a needle''