Electronic Ignition Modules convert to breakerless system without magnetic pickup

[MEASURE TWICE]

Electronic Ignition Modules convert to breakerless system without magnetic pickup

It seem I thought there was a need for a magnetic or some other kind of feed back to get the timing on these type of modules that lack having either a light or magnetism pickup associated with the crankshaft.

I was wrong I am guessing from the fact that the single cylinder engines that had mechanical points, only have them for opening the primary circuit to get the flyback effect in the magneto to create the high tension delivery to the sparkplug.

The flywheel magnet passing by the magneto is where the timing really is and there is no adjustment. If the key way get damaged that is the way the timing can change and the engine won't run.

The adjustments of the points must be considered in to adjustment 0.020" for the delay after the flywheel magnet passes the magneto. This means the electronic module does the same amount of preset delay to match and there might also be an automatic adjustment for advance. But unlike like the vacuum systems on old cars acting on the diaphragm to change the dwell, if it is to be electronic without a magnetic pickup, maybe it can sense the rpm from the charge as it appears on the primary and then disappears again.

My Briggs and Stratton Model 80202 0430 01 is I think a 3hp 4 stroke and although it works and am considering getting the module to convert it. The kind that also has you still needing to have a magneto that the engine came with. There is no sensor pickup as some engines that came that way already have.

Does this seem correct?

MT

 

[Mac]

I have run the old B & S without points/condenser even installed in them, need a good pull, it will fire, the electronic modules must do something, they start much easier with it installed. Back when I raced go-carts, some guys used an off-set keyway on the crank to move the timing 4 deg either adv or retard, I think most ran it retarded(it's been a while) Now I see they have coil adjustment brackets... sounds good to me!

Mac

 

[MEASURE TWICE]

I just found that for about $40.00 and sales tax my local Yard Birds sells a Briggs and Statton made part that includes the magneto with built in parts that negate the need for the condensor and breaker points.

I saw online at Amazon a knock off that supposed to fit but both people who bought the parts returned them when they physically did not fit. My local shop has 3 of these for my engine in stock. I will wait and see still how it goes with the original parts with the breaker points, but will keep that in mind if the magneto goes bad.

So what I like about this is that I won't have to find some way of mounting the breakerless ignition parts somewhere on the engine as you have to do with the parts sold that do not include the newer integral magneto.

Mac... the thing I think why the electronic seem hotter spark, may be they start out the same compared to breaker type, but as the breaker type wear and the you see breaker type not as hot. The resistance gets greater in the contact points when the carbon burns on the points with age. Electronic on the other hand should not change much over life span. Just hope that you get a good one and you get to the bottom of the bath tub curve before warranty ends

MT

 

[cannonball2]

You can use the later ignition modules from similar model B&S engines. There is/was a small module Called a Nova and sold under other names I believe, cost about $10. It was simply wired to the coil wire from the points and grounded with its other wire. Worked on almost everything. I installed many over the years. Am still running one in my ancient Echo chain saw that getting points became an issue for, its mounted inside the handle.

 

[BigBlue]

They now have the Nova II. I don't know if they work with the B&S Magnetron coils which have been available since 1982. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briggs_&_Stratton

From my understanding, you can't use the new all-in-one Magnetron coils with an older engine due to the polarity of the flywheels. From what I gather, you'd have to send the flywheel into B&S and have them re-polarize the flywheel.

There is another transistor ignition called the Atom Mini-tron that is harder to come by: http://tinyurl.com/7ll8rpf I think they were made in Australia and no longer produced. Banta is in Canada and I don't know if they do retail sales.

Just found this website for small engine ignition systems:
http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/ignition.htm

Chris
AKA: BigBlue

 

[cannonball2]

I worked on lawn equipment for the last 17yrs., and have replaced many of the original coils with the later Magnetron unit. In fact there is a plug that was included to plug the point push rod when the points were removed. Its a direct bolt on for most older engines, but not including the very old ones. In fact B&S used to sell a unit that clipped on to the point coil to convert it, but I dont think they are still available as the Magnetron probably phased em out. Never had an issue using the existing flywheel. The Nova was said not to work with 2 legged ignitions, but they worked on everything I converted that had a good coil. Thats a great link BTW BB!

 

[rustycase]

WoW!!!

That REALLY IS a great website!
There is SO MUCH excellent information!

http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/ignition.htm

Tnx BigBlue!
rc

 

[BigBlue]

Yeh,

Off topic, I have a couple late 1980's Yamaha 600 engines that I would like to get rid of the pesky CDI units and convert them to solid state ignition, using a modified trigger wheel that are used in fuel injection mods.

Chris
AKA: BigBlue

 

[MEASURE TWICE]

WoW!!!

That REALLY IS a great website!
There is SO MUCH excellent information!

http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/ignition.htm

Tnx BigBlue!
rc

=================================

From Measure Twice

I had seen that page too. Before I started the thread I read some stuff there that gave me the explanation of what I believe is why there is no adjustment necessary when you install these things. That is either the modules that use the existing magneto or have them integral with a magneto, there is no adjustment necessary.

Adjustment only becomes necessary when points wear and the gap distance changes.

I thought that when the flywheel magnet passes the magneto one polarity pole (+ or – whatever it is) passes and then the opposite passes that is how the module senses it is nearing time to fire the secondary high tension. A certain predetermined time delay after that to get timing to be like 8 degrees before top dead center on the compression stroke, the module fires the secondary high tension to the sparkplug.

I could be wrong about this, but I have not heard any real explanation so I thought of this.

In comparison the original setup with breaker points has to have the gap set at 0.020 inch so that when the little pin from the crankshaft pushes on the movable spring loaded side of the points , it opens and allows the primary low tension field to collapse and cause the secondary high tension to fire the plug at the same 8 degrees before top dead center on the compression stroke as the electronic version does.

The differences is that the electronic type does not have the points to wear and any change in delay would probably be a delay of infinity, the module is non-functional all together. It most likely does not vary a little as it ages, just goes ka-put all at once. This happens after such a long time hopefully that it is worth it to invest in it. I’ve heard people say that two to three years can be had before replacing the points and condenser and adjusting.

The condenser being a capacitor I believe tries to some degree to stop the arcing across the point gap when it opens. The connection wire to the condenser takes the charge and stores it which prevents it attempting to try to arc across the points. The electronic ignition module does away with this part.

I have seen on EBay with free shipping the MEGA-FIRE-II-IGNITION-MODULE-UNIVERSAL-LESCO-050409 for $13.95 being the best price I have seen.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEGA-FIRE-I...516?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e5f7bac9c
I am going to just see when I get the time and good weather to work on this to see if I’ll bother with making and upgrade with this electronic module or not. If any one finds specifics of details on how the nuts and bolts of these things work and if I got it right or wrong, I’d like to see that.

MT

 

[cannonball2]

That appears the same as a Nova, if it is of the same quality its a good unit.

 

[BigBlue]

Here's some information from Briggs and Stratton on replacing ignition. They still have a kit for replacing pre-1982 engines: solid-state ignition conversion kit
Ignition Conversion Kit, service part number 394970
http://tinyurl.com/787yrse

Here's someone selling on Ebay for $12.74 with shipping.
http://tinyurl.com/7fzljwc

From reading forum posts on the internet, your armature needs to be good for these kits to work - no weak armatures.

Good Luck,

Chris
AKA: BigBlue

 

[MEASURE TWICE]

Just an update.

I may dispense with the electronic ignition for now as I got to finding my cheap Briggs carb without any adjustments for air fuel mixture at any speed was running rich.

I was using a foam air filter that was from a Toro Mower with a Techumseh carb. When I decided to try a test with out an air filter at all to run the engine in a dustless area, not riding either, tested and it ran fine. I knew the engine was OK because another vacujet carb and oil bath air filter from an older Briggs engine worked on the engine fine at all speeds.

I started thinking a pleated paper air filter would be less restrictive and make up the difference in the too rich a mixture from the foam filter I was using.

I suppose that a certain amount of interaction between the carb air fuel mixture and the point gap timing can get some better results of the engine trying to run well at top end speed, but not enough to be perfect as I tinkered enough to not want to wear out all the threads getting to adjust the gap over an over.

Messing with trying to get the infromation on changing the jets in the carb and I guess I felt that the help from Briggs came to an end when they seemed to find I was asking for their engineering help so I found the right air filter to make it work right.

The air filter housing parts cheap used on Ebay and new thin foam pre-filter and the major pleated paper air filter has it idle super slow and roar at top end an purr any where inbetween. This even with the govenor having to be removed as I had used an elbow bend in the carb manifold to fit the carb and engine in the frame of the bike. Trying to make a right angle bend with the govenor linkages would be an engineering feat, but I thought of servos and electronics to move the linkages, sort of thinking ouside the box.

Anyway no need to go electronic to any degree for the old school bike, but when I get to making it's art covering to look like a female California Sheapshead Fish with kenetic art for slow parades, I'll probably be entering that realm.

Thanks for all that input though!

MT

 

[GearNut]

All I can say about the Briggs solid-state ignition conversion is...
I installed one in the Taco minibike I had when I was a kid and the improvement was awesome.
Easier starting, smoother idle, more torque, better fuel economy and one less thing to routinely adjust/ replace when it wore out.
I had that minibike for years after I did the conversion and it never failed. I rode it nearly every weekend around the riverbed trails and at the local off road area that had lots of hills and a race track.

 

[MEASURE TWICE]

I am not needing further information on electronic ignitions as I am changing my motor bike engine in anyway, as my old point type engine on my motor bike is doing fine. The old 80202 0430 70's Era Briggs is got pep still. It starts always real easy. It is because I got a generator that the engine has a pointless magneto type and got me interested in them as it has a faulty pointless magneto.

I did find a neat MS word file describing small engines online. It was from:

Agricultural Education Program
Washington State University
Pullman, Washington

Internal Combustion Engines
Teaching Manual

By

Dr. Michael K. Swan
Project Manager

Google Search:
Internal Combustion EnginesTeaching Manual brings up this:

do the search on Google as the pasted link I know does not work for some reason **************************************************************

[DOC]
small engines - the Georgia Agriculture Curriculum Resource and ...
www.gaaged.org/.../Small Engine/Engines_Teaching_Manual.doc‎
TEACHING MANUAL. Agricultural Education Program. Washington State University. Pullman, Washington. Internal Combustion Engines. Teaching Manual. By.

downloads the MS Word Doc 2.48MB

=================


It has information on pointless ignitions (TCI), Transistor Controlled Ignition. I found as opposed to the CDI or Regular Point System the TCI has timing that is controlled by a coil that specifically is there to be a pickup for engine rpm. The other two coils primary and secondary also there as usual. See the area that describes ESG circuit in conjunction with Control Circuit part of the TCI. Page 39 bullet 13. The diagram on page 61 Diagram for TCI SYSTEM (1).

I cannot be sure if it is a continuously variable adjustment for the timing change or it is just a switch for retarded timing at slow and then advanced at a certain engine rpm, with no in between.

The reason I became interested in this was that I am fixing a generator that the magneto in it has the system of some sort that does not need points. Not sure is it CDI or TCI type. It is built into the epoxy on the magneto and was intermittent for a while. Now I will get a new one and see how it responds. I hear that the electronics would be better kept cooler out side away from the engine and wires go to the magneto. This is not the way they make them, but it keeps the mfrs happy selling replacement parts. I suppose it did its best, but in the desert heat at a few Burning Man Events it was running charging batteries, then gifted to me as it was problematic.

Coleman CM04143N it no longer being made

MT

 

[MEASURE TWICE]

I got the new magneto with built in pointless electronics built in and the spark it hot!

It looks exactly like the original part.

The only thing I messed up was when I put one of the governor springs (one the 2 springs) back on there was an extra hole it could go at one end. I found out it was the inner one to use not the outer one on the arm. The second spring is for secondary governor to help with idle. I'm guessing it was from the manufacturer of the engine and is not getting any use in the generator. The generator does not ever use idle the way it runs at a constant speed to get 60 Hz.

It is a longer distance to stretch the spring on the outer one. This makes the engine scream at way high rpm, not good. It had 275 volts ac and did not bother to measure the frequency, but it sure must have been way above 60 hertz. No damage.

I'll just work on it tomorrow switching it back to the inner less spring stretch and slower rpm. Then there is a screw that also adjusts the pull on the end that there is no choice to put the spring. You can reach that one with the covers on to get volts and frequency right.

There must be centrifugal weights inside the generator portion that move this arm that pulls against the strong spring. Then the usual push rod and weak spring both go to the throttle.

I also know that the axle that comes out of the generator that has these centrifugal weights does not have a key to match with the arm. I had not noticed where the two lock nuts kept the arm in relation to axle with lock nuts.

I figured since the engine while off has by default full throttle, then the full throw of the rotation of the axle should be to slow the engine to the point it gets around 60 hertz and the volts 110 to 120 vac.

I had initially thought to put the arm in the center of the throw which would only allow it to slow the engine from full throttle to half of what it would otherwise.

Anyway this is I guess you could call a China Girl. Or maybe old lady as I can't get much documentation for repair detailed, but I did get the magneto and for under $30.00 avoiding the company that supposedly took over the business for this generator and finding on Ebay new part.

MT

 

[MEASURE TWICE]

All is well with the gen-set now. The new magneto with built in electronics for the pointless system works firing the spark plug really hot.

The adjustment screw for the one of two springs and the mechanical governor was moving, but there was a part keeping it from adjusting due to some corrosion. Took care of that.

Then the axle thing that comes up out of the centrifugal weights inside the crankcase part of the mechanical governor was not in sync with something. It must have gotten that way when I temporarily removed the arm attached to it.

I had loosened two nuts that hold it in place. There was no key so I figured where to tighten the nuts to get it in the same position, but that was not enough.

I had also lubricated it to work smoother and had taken a cotter pin out which allowed the axle to move further down into the crankcase than it would otherwise.

I think that coupled with turning the axle to get the lubrication worked in did get something out of sync.

When I was almost ready to just set the throttle at one speed and say I must have messed up the mechanical governor, I tried again and found that I had probably realigned something inside the crankcase I could not see. It works fine again!

What I did was pull the recoil starter with the ignition off and push and pull the axle and put pressure clockwise and counter clockwise at the same time. After putting enough fuel in the carb bowl I was able to have the integral cover / gas tank removed but still run the engine. I verified not only that the governor worked, I saw it in action. I have the voltage and frequency working as it should and slapped both covers on.

Then it would not start. I had already know the carb was OK and the float, but I finally opened a needle valve for a little richer mixture and now one or two pulls, it starts right up. I have to use the choke almost always, but as soon as it starts, turn off the choke and it purrs.

MT