Cheap and Easy Drive Roller
- Thread starter cannonball2
- Start date
I like the idea of the drilled holes. I think it would work well but might "shave" rubber off the tires, wearing them somewhat faster than standard rollers. Still it would be a fine trade to run through cheap tires a little faster if you got good grip all the time.
Heh, the beat goes on, tinkering is fun but the only real answer is don't ride in the rain. Friction like all laws of thermodynamics is a zero sum game. Drilling, slotting, grooving only serves to reduce the contact area, providing less friction. Unless a viscous hydraulic fluid with stiction properties, unlike water, is employed like that used in a Nuvinci hub or transmission, any wetting only reduces friction.
Friction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Why do they put the groves in the tires ?to ruduce the contact point and reduce hydroplaneing,if you have a 6 inch wide tire and 33% is groves then u have 4 inches in the road in small incroments ,the rubber compound wears fast and grips good or wears slow and grips poorly(soft and hard material,,the treads on the bike tire assist in flexing allowing a better grip the groves in the roller would make small point contact w/bike tir groves w/out water under the roller for slipping,just theroy and thinking how tires and syncronizers work
Check that link to the coefficients of friction chart of various materials.
Concrete (wet) Rubber 0.30
Concrete (dry) Rubber 1.0
Then, car tires and bicycle tires are two completely different dynamics, Sheldon Brown Bicycle Tires and Tubes explains that well and why bicycle tires cannot hydroplane, IE: slicks are better than treads http://yarchive.net/bike/slicks.html per Jobst Brandt.
Concrete (wet) Rubber 0.30
Concrete (dry) Rubber 1.0
Then, car tires and bicycle tires are two completely different dynamics, Sheldon Brown Bicycle Tires and Tubes explains that well and why bicycle tires cannot hydroplane, IE: slicks are better than treads http://yarchive.net/bike/slicks.html per Jobst Brandt.
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Gonna start on the stone rollers right away. Waiting for another pillowblock. I'm gonna pull out the existing 3/4 shaft and turn and thread it to 5/8 far enough on the undriven end to screw on the stone and secure it with locknuts. then I will turn the shaft to use a 1/2" pillowblock on the end.
The syncronizer I believe is able to slow/stop the gear because of its cone shape, the grooves do allow for the dispersal of the lubricating oil, but the forcing of two cones is the trick. Doubt it would work with two flat surfaces. The totally smooth surface of the oak roller has given the best wet drive I have found as I guess it offers the most contact area. Im sure tire tread design and compound play also. Seems the flatter the tire surface the better. I have some slicks but they crown too much in the center. I guess thats why my FD is driving so well now, the tire is worn to a flatter profile, and I have a good deal of down pressure. Bet it wont drive as well with a new tire, at least initally.
This sounds like the old debate about completely slick tires hydroplaning in standing water at given speeds. One camp says bicycle tires can't hydroplane because they are so narrow and the force on them so relatively great. The other says bah humbug, slick tires slip on wet streets and I have roadrash/scars to say so. 
Knurling rollers seems to be conventional wisdom, and people buy new ones when they wear down, so maybe there is something to traction patterns on tires and rollers.
Knurling rollers seems to be conventional wisdom, and people buy new ones when they wear down, so maybe there is something to traction patterns on tires and rollers.
Years back, when my son still watched the Simpsons, I remember us cracking up at an episode where Homer admonishes his daughter for becoming obsessed with a science project on perpetual motion, saying: "Lisa in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics"
There is no real debate though confusion may still linger and we can chock much of that up to marketing. Bicycle tires designed as slicks exhibit different properties than treaded tires worn smooth, and it's often necessary to look elsewhere at other mitigating factors involved like tire compound, inflation and sidewall deflection or oil, paint and road surface contaminants contributing to cause crashes.
But friction drive spindle surface and tire traction on road surfaces are actually two independent discussions with differing dynamic profiles. Knurling a hard, steel surface is different that grooving or fluting it, and like adding grit, can increase effective traction, the process known as adhesive friction, to exploit the difference in the relative hardness at the interface of two materials. An inverse view might be noted by observing why a smooth tire offers better results with friction drive than a knobby or treaded pattern.
There is no real debate though confusion may still linger and we can chock much of that up to marketing. Bicycle tires designed as slicks exhibit different properties than treaded tires worn smooth, and it's often necessary to look elsewhere at other mitigating factors involved like tire compound, inflation and sidewall deflection or oil, paint and road surface contaminants contributing to cause crashes.
But friction drive spindle surface and tire traction on road surfaces are actually two independent discussions with differing dynamic profiles. Knurling a hard, steel surface is different that grooving or fluting it, and like adding grit, can increase effective traction, the process known as adhesive friction, to exploit the difference in the relative hardness at the interface of two materials. An inverse view might be noted by observing why a smooth tire offers better results with friction drive than a knobby or treaded pattern.
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The best tire (in my experience) on an FD are the original Velosolex tires made by Michelin They are long wearing, with a deep set of two groves for water dispersal I assume. As far as I know these are one of the few if not only purpose built tires for FD. They last quite a long time especially being driven by a grit type roller. They are not especially wide, and I doubt the contact area of the tread is more than an inch, but it does make a smooth surface, seperated by the grooves. The problem with common FDs is they are forced to be used with standard bike tires. Who knows what they are made of compound wise. I can tell you by what comes on the cheaper imported bikes they are made to no standards, not even round! So all that said, it a crap shoot of sorts as to what we get tire wise, which are just as important as the roller.
Wow so much for me to think about from this thread.
I recently blew up my motor, but found a replacement, and this one has a threaded hole in the center of the shaft, so I will be able to utilize Cannonball2s compression fit design.
Now I can easily make and switch drive rollers, what a great concept C2, thanks
For the moment I have cheap soft rubber caster wheels, which grab wonderfully with very little downward pressure, but they are getting chewed up quite easily. But the tire is completely unfazed, wear-wise, and they are cheap and easy to replace, so I may just treat them as disposable drive rollers until the supply runs out or I get in a mood to experiment with other things.
Have not tried them wet yet, but I suspect they'll slip like anything else.
I recently blew up my motor, but found a replacement, and this one has a threaded hole in the center of the shaft, so I will be able to utilize Cannonball2s compression fit design.
Now I can easily make and switch drive rollers, what a great concept C2, thanks
For the moment I have cheap soft rubber caster wheels, which grab wonderfully with very little downward pressure, but they are getting chewed up quite easily. But the tire is completely unfazed, wear-wise, and they are cheap and easy to replace, so I may just treat them as disposable drive rollers until the supply runs out or I get in a mood to experiment with other things.
Have not tried them wet yet, but I suspect they'll slip like anything else.
After the second rebuttle,I re-read the Sheldon Brown tire thingy and the tires you state above with a grit roller would be about what he said about smoothe tires and regular pavement is not really smoothe but a multitude of small irregular grip marks,good grip between them,(except paint lines and steel plates,etc) I still wunder about groves around the roller insted of accross it
The velosolex tires probably have the 2 grooves for preventing sidewall wear, and allowing the tire to flex more when cornering, surely incorporating water spray too.
Velosolex - 1978 Solex 4600 V3 - New York - YouTube video of 1970's Solex bike , walk around and drive. Dad gum these are ugly to me, but look like fun. Hahah. I always thought they looked like a stationary bike someone cobbled into a moped.
Velosolex - 1978 Solex 4600 V3 - New York - YouTube video of 1970's Solex bike , walk around and drive. Dad gum these are ugly to me, but look like fun. Hahah. I always thought they looked like a stationary bike someone cobbled into a moped.
They are an interesting machine. Obviously made to a price point, from stamped steel and rather crude in construction. Really poor original paint, applied with no primer, so most are rusty to some degree. I dont remember, but the welds can probably be counted on one hand, even the front fork bolts together. The pedal crank runs in bushings, no bearings. Most of the money is in the power unit. Aside from all that it is a very well purposed machine. Designed to move people cheaply and reliably. They numbered into the millions. They would have to be the most successful MB ever. They are so charming probably because they are French, and French engineering is well just strange. I have been restoring mine for a while now, the engine is completed as well as the wheels, shod with NOS tires. The real ***** is in the paint stripping. Most of it has fallen off already, but whats there is really stuck! I keep a watch for parts on ebay and the prices have increased quite a bit. Must mean they have hit a nostalgic nerve with a certain age group and are now a restoration object. It is a piece of history.
I think it is that most Americans today are somewhat ignorant of motor bicycles and mopeds, and think it is kind of new in America. Do we have a Velosolex thread to move to? I think they are a successful venture like you said.
Velosolex now in new production in Hungary ("modified from the original only as necessary to meet new legislation")
http://www.velosolex.co.uk/review.htm
I saw some new ones in USA (online shopping) and I think they were around $1000 !
Velosolex now in new production in Hungary ("modified from the original only as necessary to meet new legislation")
http://www.velosolex.co.uk/review.htm
I saw some new ones in USA (online shopping) and I think they were around $1000 !
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I think the link to the Hungarian version was discussed in the Hongdu/Solex thread as being old. I believe the conclusion is they are not in production there anymore, but now are assembled in France from "international" parts. Yep China is included. I guess we can start a thread, a lot of people either have, or had had em. Might be interesting
I bumped an old thread we can discuss it here.http://motorbicycling.com/f36/velosolex-3800-motorbike-3659.html#post34793
I am planning to try this soon. My wife's bike has Nu tech foam tires which were not really easy to get, so I think the wood roller would probably help them last longer. The cool thing about the hole-saw and drill method is that you can make your own rollers as long as the bits last. This appeals to me because if it does wear or start flaking I can just have several made and put another on. I'll try to make a video or pics after testing it.
For the 2x4 roller, did you use an arbored hole saw or without? I am worried the alignment will not be best because last time I used a hole saw, the scrap pieces had oblong or odd center holes or split when I pushed them out of the hole saw. I had no use for them then, but that was my observation. Without a center drill bit, it seems hard to start the cut. Do you have any tips, or do you just make several and pick the best?