First Build Underway

[victorp]

Re: First Build Underway - operating restrictions

The rules on bicycles and mopeds with combustion engines are more complex:

Anything over 50cc is considered a motorcycle. That means you have to have an motorcycle class drivers license, a motorcycle registration and a motorcycle license plate and fitting insurance.
Using a 66cc China engine on a bicycle puts you automatically in the motorcycle categorie.

If you build your own, it is virtually impossible to have it registered as a motorcycle. The technical test that you have to submit your bike to, is way too expensive and complex (i.e. you have to supply x-rays of your welds and supply graphs of your braking power).
That is why café racers are more popular, because you can buy a used frame with an existing registration, and work from there.

For self built vehicles with less than 50cc, these rules also apply.
Restored oldtimer mopeds or bicycles with small engines like Solex, Sachs, Villiers etc. receive a registration easily because these types have been sold and registered in the past in this, or another country. Just supply our DMV with the old paperwork.

You can see from the above that it is just not feasible to have a home-built motorized bike road legal in the Netherlands.
You can own them and ride them on private grounds and at shows.

If you manage to insure your "illegal" bike (which you can do by buying a comparable wreck with registration and punch the numbers in your bicycle frame), the insurance will not pay out if you are involved in an accident. So this is actually the show stopper.

Victor

 

[victorp]

Hey Victorp, welcome to the forum. If you ever want a Villiers engine id be more then happy to swap a Villiers for a Sachs.

Thank you Harry, but I am still trying to master the Art of the Chinese engines. That will take a while.

 

[silverbear]

Victor,
That's up to Whitey, I guess. We don't want to take his thread off into a different galaxy, but the laws in different countries is interesting and the ways we bike nuts get around some of the restrictions is always of interest. I break the law by having an engine on a couple bikes which are technically too big, but neither one is going to break the sound barrier or even get me up a steep hill. The Sachs engine I'll be using is going to get a copper disc on the flywheel cover. I'm going to stamp it with metal stamps made for leather work and spell out 'Sachs Model 1932' and under it '2X 49cc' (that would be 49 CC times 2 or 98 CCs. 49 on that side of the motor and another 49 on the other side. Not that I ever expect to be questioned much about the power of the engine. It is small enough that it is conceivable it could be just 49. If I did get caught I could blame it on those crazy Germans for labeling the motor that way. The copper disc will get held on with little brass bolts or rivets and in time will look very old and original.
The best defense in any country I think is trying to obey the laws in other ways (coming to a stop, using signals, wearing a helmet, respecting speed limits, courtesy to pedestrians and other vehicles and generally trying not to draw negative attention to yourself. Your ebike clips along. Cool.
SB

 

[silverbear]

Victor,
I was having a conversation with Fasteddy yesterday about the restrictions in his home country of Canada (Vancouver, British Columbia) which has banned motored bicycles. Electric is OK, but very expensive to build a bike that way. Going the route of using an old light motorcycle frame or moped frame would be a way around the problem there. Perhaps in Australia, too.
I'm going to try to stay under the radar with this Sachs engine powered Indian build and on the sidelines am fiddling around with an old AMF moped frame which is getting fitted up with larger wheels, a 2 speed Tomos engine from a donor bike, a heavy duty oil filled Suzuki suspension fork up front and whatever else I have lying around and that I think will fit this odd little bike. I'm also going to try to get a title for it so that conceivably it could be registered. It would be 50cc (unless I secretly modify the engine with the 80cc kit), so I think I may be able to make it legal. Technically legal, anyway.
SB

 

[victorp]

You mean a frame like this one?

That would be great!

 

[silverbear]

You mean a frame like this one?

That would be great!

Yes, that one exactly, although the one I got had been sitting outside in northern Wisconsin getting rusty for a few years before I bought it for the drum brake hubs. Then last winter I picked up a damaged Tomos and got to staring at the AMF and saw possibilities.
I cut off the part of the frame which has the pedal in the picture you posted and then cut off the engine hanger from the Tomos. The Tomos has a pedal crank built in so I did't need the one from the AMF. Once the hanger is welded to the AMF frame where the old bottom bracket was then the Tomos engine can fit under the frame. The rear wheel is larger and came from a Sachs moped so has a sprocket on both sides for pedal and engine chains. Behind the seat I will use the rack which is there, give it another top piece to fix a passenger seat to. I may use the Tomos seat for that. I have the Suzuki front fork which is just awesome and will give it a big honker of a headlight which tucks back into the wider Suzuki fork. Up front will be a 24" heavy duty wheel with a Worksman front hub drum brake. When I removed the engine from the Tomos I left all the wiring harness intact so that I can use the original horn, switches, throttle and brake levers, etc. Should be very little money involved and ought to scoot right down the road I would think. It will be easy for a gimpy old guy such as meself to climb aboard and off again. If I don't like it then I'll sell it. I don't expect to have more than $250.00 in it even including the two donor mopeds. I'm having some trouble picturing how all this is going to look so it will be interesting to see this little orphan grow up into something different in it's second incarnation.
SB

 

[whitey]

redid the truss rods for my forks. I cut off the old stalks and made up some new ones

 

[fasteddy]

Whitey,
Enjoying your bike as it comes together. You have a trophy winner for sure.

Steve.

 

[silverbear]

redid the truss rods for my forks. I cut off the old stalks and made up some new ones

Looks good, Whitey. Did you have any luck finding a motor at that swap meet?

I want to apologize for my going on about that Tomos/AMF build. I didn't mean to high jack your thread. I started a thread of my own on that build if you'r interested in seeing something odd. http://motorbicycling.com/f28/tomos-amf-roadmaster-32625.html

Keep up the good work. Think I have found another interesting motor... a 48CC German made 2 stroke water cooled Solo.
SB

 

[whitey]

Did you have any luck finding a motor at that swap meet?


there were quite a few sachs engines at the swap meet. They were all in exceptionally good condition. As it turns out. Sachs are quite expensive here. The cheapest engine was 450 and it was missing some clutch parts. I decided that it would be worth the extra $200 for the power the morini can produce. Seeing as September is very close. I am just going to wait.

 

[harry76]

Whitey, very very nice work on those forks. You are a master, and only young, you may have a future in this sort of thing. Keep it up!

Hey Whitey, just throwing this out there, i saw this Villiers 9E on Ebay (220826694036) and it has 2 days left, $250 with no bids in Victoria. I would have considered buying it but i cant afford it atm. As i couldnt afford it i didnt really look into the dimensions of this engine and if it is actually usable. It seems cheap enough (for now) to look further.

I guess engine choice comes down to performance or authentic looks, if you want performance the morini would be the way to go, but if you want an authentic looking bike , which youve done an outstanding job so far, the Sachs or this Villiers would be hard to beat..... just wondering what sort of swap meet you attended that had Sachs engines. Id really like to own one...... one day

 

[whitey]

I have to say that that is one nice engine. Also pretty cheap at the moment. The engine is 200cc. I don't even have to check to say that it won't fit in my frame sadly


the swap meet was held by the local motorcycle club. I have been before, last year and they had allot of old moped parts and engines. But back then I wasn't after any

 

[whitey]

I have done more searching and found a go kart engine in my price range. A YAMAHA KT 100SE. They can produce up to 20hp and over. I would not be using any performance parts and no expansion pipe

Questions:

Has anyone used go kart engines before and had a good outcome?

would 100cc be too large? (legality doesn't matter)


Yamaha KT 100 Details

 

[whitey]

more pics. I have found a villiers engine that I really want. Its 147cc, much larger than the standard 98cc mower models. Now I need to convince the seller to ship to Aus


I finally finished my the forks. The truss clips onto the bottom of each fork leg and is bolted to a plate in headset. One big problem I had to overcome was making a 1 1/8" headset fit a 1" steerer tube. I had access to many old road bikes, all with 1" steerer tubes, which I used when making the forks. I made the forks before I got the frame, only to realize that the frame used a 1 1/8" headset. I filed away all the thread in the headset and then machined a smaller diameter sleeve with thread to screw onto the smaller diameter steerer. It all worked out in the end

 

[harry76]

Nice work Whitey, good luck on that Villiers

 

[whitey]

I started to make the fuel tank today. Made a mock up out of cardboard and then transferred that onto the sheet metal. It is coming out very well so far...
I made the tank mounts by using solid steel rod machined on the lathe with a thread inside. Then machined a bung for the fuel tap.

I have been running out of things to do. I can only get so far without an engine. So I made a simple stand to store the bike when it is finished

 

[whitey]

more pics and with regards to the 140cc Villiers engine. I was outbid

 

[silverbear]

Your build is coming along nicely and I understand the frustration over not only not having your engine, but not even knowing for sure what it will be.

I've posted a picture from yesterday on where my Indian Hiawatha build is... engine is in place and now it has an exhaust. I'd like to mention again the merits of this vintage motor.

Lots of them were made, although you'd probably have to bid on the German ebay. Any friends who speak German? Or go to a Fitchell & Sachs site and ask the guys on one of those forums. Show them what you're up to and somebody is going to want to help you find a motor and get it to you.

98CCs is plenty of power and it has a built in 2 speed transmission. These were designed for exactly what you are doing... fitting in to a heavy bicycle / light motorcycle frame. Their business was to provide the engine for lots of motorcycle companies. The engine was first sold in 1932 (why it's called model 1932) and was made up to 1950... many many thousands were produced.

It has a built in lighting coil so you already have the electrics for lights and horn.

It looks vintage because it is.

German engineering. I have yet to fire mine up, but everything I have read suggests these are great running motors that go forever.

I bet that even with shipping it would cost less than a new Morini.

My sales pitch is over. Whatever you choose, good luck and keep the pictures coming.
SB

 

[baslok]

nice build so far!

what hub you are useing, looks interesting!
i´m from germany, if i can help let me know!
i bought a old villiers from ebay some time ago, it was a mk VIII c with 147cc, very old one from 1924, parts and infos are very rar!

greetings

baslok

 

[Tinsmith]

Real nice work Whitey!. Dan