Why can't you buy an "uncertified" engine? I mean CARB just says you can't run it, nothing about owning it, right? And if the say you can't own it, I would question the "constitutionality" of such a law. That is tantamount to "regulating interstate commerce" which is clearly only doable on the fed level. But that is why I live in New Hampshire, all the crazies that want to save the world with legislation live across the river in VT and most of the Residents here still believe in "Live Free or Die".
CA. Law Info
- Thread starter Biker Mike
- Start date
thanks Mike, that's some good info to know.
I totally agree with you about getting these bikes legal. all the bikes i build, i get licensed, and sell them with the plates and paperwork. in fact, i send in the paperwork as soon as i get the bike serial number, before i even begin building it. average wait time on a plate is 6 weeks, so i figure by the time the bike's done, i'll have it.
i haven't come up with a cool lighting etc package yet, but i'm working on it.
it really bugs me when i see craigslist ads, especially from "official" companies, that say things like "100% legal, no license or registration required," and other false statements along the same line. if it's an individual seller trying to dump his crappy huffy, i realize they don't know any better, but there are a few companies out there that knowingly lie in an effort to make a sale.
i've sent emails with links to these guys, and i'm usually met with hostility. but i think it's false advertising, and irresponsibility on their part to sell a product based on lies. it's bad enough they're trying to sell an inferior product, but to use false information to do it is even worse.
another thing that bugs me, is when i'm sweating it out in my DOT helmet, and i see ten guys rolling around without them. but at least i know i'm not gonna be the one with the ticket, or a busted head.
that's my morning rant for the day...
I totally agree with you about getting these bikes legal. all the bikes i build, i get licensed, and sell them with the plates and paperwork. in fact, i send in the paperwork as soon as i get the bike serial number, before i even begin building it. average wait time on a plate is 6 weeks, so i figure by the time the bike's done, i'll have it.
i haven't come up with a cool lighting etc package yet, but i'm working on it.
it really bugs me when i see craigslist ads, especially from "official" companies, that say things like "100% legal, no license or registration required," and other false statements along the same line. if it's an individual seller trying to dump his crappy huffy, i realize they don't know any better, but there are a few companies out there that knowingly lie in an effort to make a sale.
i've sent emails with links to these guys, and i'm usually met with hostility. but i think it's false advertising, and irresponsibility on their part to sell a product based on lies. it's bad enough they're trying to sell an inferior product, but to use false information to do it is even worse.
another thing that bugs me, is when i'm sweating it out in my DOT helmet, and i see ten guys rolling around without them. but at least i know i'm not gonna be the one with the ticket, or a busted head.
that's my morning rant for the day...
Hey Baird on the light thing, I am working on a modular system that rack mounts, the box on the rack has your tail light and rear blinkers and stuff built in and it holds the battery and all the circuittry, with a plugs to a wiring harness that hits your switches and headlight and white wire take off, the box and head light are easily removed to prevent theft. Maybe you could come up with something like for your builds, my prototype is an old tool box, or maybe it started life as a tackle box....
i'm trying to go as minimal as possible on the wires, batteries, etc, while getting the maximum output in lighting. basically, i want it all hidden, yet totally functional. i don't want it to look like they've been bolted on as an afterthought. if i get it figured out, i'll post it up.
bairdco,
I notice the reg 230 form has a space for a VIN number; do you normally fill this portion out? If so, how do you go about obtaining a VIN?
-Thx
I notice the reg 230 form has a space for a VIN number; do you normally fill this portion out? If so, how do you go about obtaining a VIN?
-Thx
i use the serial number of the bike for the VIN and the same number with an "E" in front of it for the engine number.
if you don't enter a VIN number, i don't think they'll license it. there'll be no way of identifying the bike without one.
some people say "just make up a number" but if you get pulled over and you don't have a number on your bike to match the registration, you'd probably get a "fictitous plate" ticket, which i think is a pretty hefty fine, and you could even get your bike impounded.
also, the VIN you use goes into a database, so if your bike gets stolen, you've got a better chance of getting it back.
if you don't enter a VIN number, i don't think they'll license it. there'll be no way of identifying the bike without one.
some people say "just make up a number" but if you get pulled over and you don't have a number on your bike to match the registration, you'd probably get a "fictitous plate" ticket, which i think is a pretty hefty fine, and you could even get your bike impounded.
also, the VIN you use goes into a database, so if your bike gets stolen, you've got a better chance of getting it back.
Thanks for the info; it sounds like the DMV doesn't run the VIN numbers through a checksum validation. I've written a simple script to generate the closest mathematically verifiable VIN number given the serial number on the bicycle. You can download the code ****.
If you put a VIN number in the second field and press "Validate VIN", it will tell you whether or not the value would pass the mathematical formula for checking VINs. If you put a bicycle serial number in the first field and press "Generate VIN", it will tell you the closest value that would pass and still contain the bicycle serial number.
The "hazardous" link has been removed, but you can just get the same information from the official DOT site. (I won't include the link as apparently this information is dangerous to people.) - ... Better take your kids out of math class too, god knows what dangerous knowledge they could gain.
If you put a VIN number in the second field and press "Validate VIN", it will tell you whether or not the value would pass the mathematical formula for checking VINs. If you put a bicycle serial number in the first field and press "Generate VIN", it will tell you the closest value that would pass and still contain the bicycle serial number.
The "hazardous" link has been removed, but you can just get the same information from the official DOT site. (I won't include the link as apparently this information is dangerous to people.) - ... Better take your kids out of math class too, god knows what dangerous knowledge they could gain.
Last edited:
Doooood... Just write the bicycles serial number for the VIN number & engine number like Baird says!! (the number on the reg card MUST match the number stamped on the bike!
This has been working just fine; don't try to rethink it!
It will still match the number on the bicycle. My concern is that, if the DMV were to move off of the existing TN3270 terminal system; it's possible that client validation would prevent updates to VIN numbers with a bad 9th digit checksum. Of coarse; they don't ask for a production year, so you could always claim the bike was made prior to 1980.
Hi I agree with Venice (Hey, I even remember that beach in the "Good old days"). BUT let me add something for you to think about.
The ability to assign VIN is controlled by DOT, they provide several of the first letters (I think 4 but who cares?).
Do you REALLY want to commit a federal crime, when a simple bicycle serial number is legal???
IF you build your own frame, give it a serial, NOT a fake VIN!
Unless you'd like 3 hots and a cot for a while??? And no cigs, and no beer, and no wimmin, and no.......get the picture?
Mike
The ability to assign VIN is controlled by DOT, they provide several of the first letters (I think 4 but who cares?).
Do you REALLY want to commit a federal crime, when a simple bicycle serial number is legal???
IF you build your own frame, give it a serial, NOT a fake VIN!
Unless you'd like 3 hots and a cot for a while??? And no cigs, and no beer, and no wimmin, and no.......get the picture?
Mike
The VINs you are describing are NOT valid numbers according to the DOT. The equations simply conform the bicycle serial number to the rules stated by DOT and used by the DMV. You are the one committing the crime here, because you are inserting false manufacturer, country, and model number information by improper use of pre-allocated fields. You should understand what the number means before you just go making one up using the serial number. Again, I'm not telling you not to use the serial, I'm trying to give you a way to use the serial number without committing a crime. Oh well.
Last edited:
the last thing i want to do is confuse the DMV, the cops, and especially, myself.
i've licensed 4 bikes so far, and used the serial number on all of them. the last one only has 4 digits (number, letter, letter, number) and i still got a plate.
it's their system, i ain't gonna mess with it. as long as i've got the paperwork and the plate showing i'm legal (and all the numbers match,) i don't care.
another thing to think about, is with the popularity on the rise, and the inevitable policing that's gonna occur, as in more people getting pulled over, if you have a different number on your bike, you could get your bike impounded and some heavy fines for falsified registration. and if it did get impounded, how would you get it back? show them your reciept from walmart? where's your proof?
and as i've said countless times, when you license your bike, it goes into a database, which gives you much better odds of getting it back (V C section 5038.)
i've licensed 4 bikes so far, and used the serial number on all of them. the last one only has 4 digits (number, letter, letter, number) and i still got a plate.
it's their system, i ain't gonna mess with it. as long as i've got the paperwork and the plate showing i'm legal (and all the numbers match,) i don't care.
another thing to think about, is with the popularity on the rise, and the inevitable policing that's gonna occur, as in more people getting pulled over, if you have a different number on your bike, you could get your bike impounded and some heavy fines for falsified registration. and if it did get impounded, how would you get it back? show them your reciept from walmart? where's your proof?
and as i've said countless times, when you license your bike, it goes into a database, which gives you much better odds of getting it back (V C section 5038.)
ioillusion, do you work for the DMV or something? if not, sounds like you'd fit in, they love making things more confusing for no reason.
and how am i commiting a crime by providing correct information that the DMV accepts? if it was wrong, don't you think it would be rejected?
and how am i commiting a crime by providing correct information that the DMV accepts? if it was wrong, don't you think it would be rejected?
Hey Bairdco High Five Buddy!!!! Geeze, if this guy wants to commit fraud, by falsifying FEDERAL licensing criterion, it is ABSOLUTELY ok with me!
However, I do NOT feel that it is fair, to let Newbies (Noobs) be conned by his new, illegal, "crack" concept of doing the numbers. This is one of the sad things about Internet, "type it, and you are correct"
Good grief, Lets try to help each other, and the whole Motor Bicycle industry to stay safe and legal, and not commit major crimes in the processes of having good time, good transportation, and good use of natural resources!
Ride safe, ride as legal as you ca, cause no harm!
Mike
However, I do NOT feel that it is fair, to let Newbies (Noobs) be conned by his new, illegal, "crack" concept of doing the numbers. This is one of the sad things about Internet, "type it, and you are correct"
Good grief, Lets try to help each other, and the whole Motor Bicycle industry to stay safe and legal, and not commit major crimes in the processes of having good time, good transportation, and good use of natural resources!
Ride safe, ride as legal as you ca, cause no harm!
Mike
No, I don't work for the DMV; but I have worked on systems similar to those used to maintain VINs. If what I'm doing is illiegal, what you guys are doing is definatly illigal. I came up with my "crack" idea as it's been termed, in an effort to stay legal. I read through DOTs definition of what a VIN number is (reg 230 asks for a VIN, not a serial number) and made sure the number I was giving them conformed with their standards. The problem with simply providing the serial number on the bike, is that you are supplying information in the digits that decodes to other information. The 4 digit serials that bairdco mentioned would be fine, because the last 6 digitis in the VIN would be a serial - though technically he's padding it with 0's, so he's telling the system that the bike was made prior to 1980 (the tenth digit would be a 0). With serials over 6 digits, you are sending the system all sorts of wrong information including the year the bike was built (digit 10), the manufacturer (digit 2), the country of orgin (digit 1), the type of vehicle (digit 3), options (digit 4-8). The number I sent to the DMV when I registed my bike was 100% correct; all of the information in the VIN decoded to real and factual information and the serial number on the bike matches the serial number in the VIN. I understand this is complicated, and I can tell it's not being well recieved; but unless I'm completley misunderstanding the DMV forms and the DOT definition of a VIN number, this has to be the only way to conform to the law.
howzabout i just blow your whole argument right out of the water with this:
V C Section 671 Vehicle Identification Number
"V C Section 671 Vehicle Identification Number
Vehicle Identification Number
671. (a) A "vehicle identification number" is the motor number, serial number, or other distinguishing number, letter, mark, character, or datum, or any combination thereof, required or employed by the manufacturer or the department for the purpose of uniquely identifying a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part or for the purpose of registration."
V C Section 671 Vehicle Identification Number
"V C Section 671 Vehicle Identification Number
Vehicle Identification Number
671. (a) A "vehicle identification number" is the motor number, serial number, or other distinguishing number, letter, mark, character, or datum, or any combination thereof, required or employed by the manufacturer or the department for the purpose of uniquely identifying a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part or for the purpose of registration."
I suppose Bard is correct according to the CVC, do the DOT requirements not matter? http://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/Rulemaking/Rules/Associated Files/VIN_Final_Rule_April_08.pdf (I based my numbers off of both the CVC and the DOT rules.)
Last edited:
