Canada...legal or illegal?

[fasteddy]

Bairco, they can whack you for over $15,000 in fines plus jail time. No licence plate? You are in control of an unlicenced, uninsured, unregistered motor vehicle. I can promise you all three charges will go together. There may be questions about a vin # too. That won't go to health care.

Yes, you get a cop that has a crusade against motor bikes and a Judge who wants to be law and order and you are in deep. Add lawyers fees to try and save yourself and it's a bigger bill than I need just to see if I can do it.
This will most likely happen after an accident that involves a motor bike unless the word comes down from Toronto to close them down.

Ah yes, add evading the police.

This is not heresay for me. I poked a lot of angry bears in the a** with a short stick and only stopped when I found out that the bears could do 30 mph and I couldn't.

Also debated law with judges in and out of court and right or wrong they have the law on thier side, you don't.

Ride long and happy and I hope you never get caught but if you do please let us all know what happened.

Steve.

 

[demac]

you make me feel paranoid fasteddy... Its not like i race my lil china motor to work everyday,lol. i drive safe constantly checking my blind spots and far ahead. i have my G and M licenses and i DO work. so getting a Criminal record for a motor bike crusing down side roads on my way to work is very unlikely. my job is has 1000 of people coming in and out alll day including cops who wanna just ask me how it works.

 

[midnight_rider]

In my previous post I said I would try and get away from them and that is evasion on top of the fines and possibly spend a couple of hours in the slammer... that is if they block me in or something... I'm not really into getting pulled over... if they pull you over it's because they wanna sock some fines on you today... a bicycle can go where a car cant go and radios travel faster than a car or a bike,... it's kind of a crap shoot isnt it ???

 

[midnight_rider]

I just called the Ministry office and they dont licence them , they say you dont need one for a motorized bicycle

update: I called the police station and talked to a traffic officer and he says if you get pulled over and dont have insurance that is a 5,000 dollar fine, no plate is a hundred and something, he never said anything about a limited speed motor licence.

Welcome to motorbiking in Ontario, I guess it all depends on which officer you pass by... hopefully we remember to hit the kill switch when we see one.... or you can let them pull you over and look forward to having a $ 5,000 plus fines slapped at you,... guess what ... that $ 5 grand doesnt get paid in time you lose any licence you hold till you pay the fines


I think we are going to have to get around the loophole by getting an ownership for a home made to licence it,... and in order for you to licence it it has to pass a mororcycle inspection safety, so now you have to have turn signals as well as a rear tail light/brake light to operate and of course a headlight... in law as I did my 101 is that the unit IS a motorized vehicle.

So what are you gonna do... book it and try and get away or be a softie and pull over like a good boy and be handed all them fines and have your drivers licences in jeoprady

 

[GearNut]

It seems like your law makers and law enforcers have never communicated with each other concerning motorized bicycles.
The Ministry office says you do not need to license a motorized bicycle, and the police say you do.
Who's on first, what's on second, I don't know's on third?

 

[Rockenstein]

It seems like your law makers and law enforcers have never communicated with each other concerning motorized bicycles.
The Ministry office says you do not need to license a motorized bicycle, and the police say you do.
Who's on first, what's on second, I don't know's on third?

You nailed it pretty well GearNut...

And something for Ontarian's to keep in mind is that Ontario judges normally will not "legislate" from the bench and they have a history of dismissing many vague legislation cases that are brought before them. I mean if they don't have exacting written legislation for whatever the case is to follow how can they be expected to administer a fair and reasonable decision? Also if conflicting information from various branches of the government is passed along to the general public on a topic such as ours this further adds to why they will, and probably should, dismiss cases where definitive legislation is not in place. As some Ontarian's have already figured out you can take your bicycle with whatever engine kit attached to it to an MTO office and be told straight up that they, the MTO, have no provisions to licence or register such a thing. If you do that and they say such things to you that right there is due diligence in that you took reasonable steps to avoid breaking any laws. Due diligence is an admissible defence so says Canadian law and if you happen to record or somehow document your conversation with an MTO official about your bicycle you really have something good to pull out of your hat should you need to. Anyway at this point in time it appears law enforcement officers in Ontario are not pulling over bicycles with engine kits on them by the hundreds and dishing out thousands of dollars in fines to the operators and I do think there is a reason. What that reason is is any-body's guess but given all the above and what us riders are feeling on the streets I do wish fasteddy would slow down with the fear mongering and the misinformation about bicycles with engine kits being an illegal motor vehicle because really they are not.

I've had 2 encounters with law enforcement during the 3000+ km I've buzzed off this season, first one said I had an interesting bike and the second one wanted to know, amongst other things, how far it would go on a tank of gas.

 

[Rockenstein]

Forgot to touch on something that was mentioned in this thread in my last post...

Jail time and criminal records DO NOT apply to Ontario Highway Traffic Act offences such as no plates, no registration, improper lighting, speeding, fail to yield right of way etc. Jail time and a criminal records also do not apply to Ontario Compulsory Automobile Insurance Act offences.

Ontario Highway Traffic Act

Ontario Compulsory Automobile Insurance Act

The above 2 acts are applicable in Ontario only.

A Canadian criminal record is something you get when a conviction is entered against you for any of the offences described in the Criminal Code of Canada.

The Criminal Code is applicable in every Canadian province or territory.

 

[fasteddy]

Rockenstein-No PM to tell me I'm an old fool and don't know what I'm talking about?

Since your quite the lawyer look up the Federal Motor vehicle act and see what it says.

The invite to lunch {I'm buying} and a trip up to the OPP to see if your bike is legal is still open. Can be in Ontario in a few days. I'm on the road.

Steve.

 

[fasteddy]

GearNut, Federal laws in Canada have to be followed by the provinces. The provinces can make the harder, to satisfiy thier needs but can't soften them. Alberta found this out when they tried to make gas powered bicycles legal. They reversed the law almost right away. You can only put an electric motor of 500W on a bicycle frame and can't go any faster than 20 mph. That is the Federal law dispite any of the back pocket lawyers who say differently.


It is up to the province to require a separate drivers licence and a plate. If the cops tell me I need something I've learned to listen really closely. They are the ones who are putting me in the cruiser. Not some clerk sitting behind a counter.
No different than when I lived in the US.


Steve.

 

[fasteddy]

Anyone who wants to keep this arguement alive just look for the other treads and posts on the subject here on the forum.

The bottom line is that it isn't 500W and goes 32km an hour plus meets the provincial safty laws your illegal and the fines are not cheap.

When you meet up with the right cop you can debate how unfair the law is with the Judge. I hope for your sake he agrees.

Steve.

 

[Rockenstein]

2 valid reasons for not getting into debates with fasteddy about the legalities involved of constructing, owning or operating a bicycle modified with the addition of a gasoline powered engine kit in Ontario...

1 - He's not a resident of Ontario.

2 - He's stated on this and another forum that constructing and operating electric powered bicycles is his thing.

.

 

[TheE]

I don't know about Ontario, but they did a study in Montreal a while back and found out that it's impossible to go about your regular business without violating at least one bylaw daily. You just gotta hope you don't meet the one cop who has something against you sitting somewhere where you shouldn't be, or feeding a squirrel, or not holding the handrail on an escalator, or riding a gas-powered motorized bicycle.

 

[fasteddy]

Rockenstein, your wrong on the first count. Windsor born and Toronto raised, smart enough to move out.

On the second your right. I built an e-bike and may build others but only because I spent a lot of hours over a week on the computer and made a lot of phone call plus paid a lawyer to find out if there was a loop hole a some where that would allow me to build a gas powered bike.

They are not legal in Canada.

When can we do lunch?

Steve.

 

[Dave31]

"Remember to always verify everything yourself with your dmv"

 

[fasteddy]

I was casting around on google to see what came up and I found this site'

Google-Canadian laws for power assisted motorbikes, Then look at "new and alternative
vehicles". There is a list of what is legal and what isn't from the Ontario government and it is current.

Checked the "motor bike" and it is a moped. This needs a lot to licences and can only be registered after 1988 model year if it has a 17 number and letter vin from a registered maker on a factory plate. That info is from another site.

Power assisted "bicycle' is powered by an electric motor.

They have included pictures so there can be no mistakes about what they are talking about.

Hope this helps. It came from the source.

Steve.

 

[Rockenstein]

Windsor born and Toronto raised, smart enough to move out

Which means your not currently an Ontario resident riding around on a bicycle with a gas engine kit and feeling the situation like we are.

They are not legal in Canada

Is Nova Scotia not part of "your Canada" Steve? The link below takes you straight to a legal document posted by the Nova Scotia Government and that document contains the text quoted below.

The Nova Scotia Motor Vehicle Act describes a bicycle with the following.

(.c.) "bicycle" means

(i) a vehicle propelled by human power upon which or in which a person may ride and that has two tandem wheels either of which is 350 millimetres or more in diameter or that has four wheels any two of which are 350 millimetres or more in diameter but does not include a wheelchair, or

(ii) a vehicle propelled by human and mechanical power that is fitted with pedals that are operable at all times to propel the bicycle, that has the same wheel requirements as set out in subclause (i) and that has an attached motor driven by electricity not producing more than 500 watts or with a piston displacement of not more than 50 cubic centimetres and is incapable of providing further assistance when the vehicle attains a speed of thirty kilometres per hour on level ground;

 

[Rockenstein]

I was casting around on google to see what came up and I found this site'

Google-Canadian laws for power assisted motorbikes, Then look at "new and alternative
vehicles". There is a list of what is legal and what isn't from the Ontario government and it is current.

Checked the "motor bike" and it is a moped. This needs a lot to licences and can only be registered after 1988 model year if it has a 17 number and letter vin from a registered maker on a factory plate. That info is from another site.

Power assisted "bicycle' is powered by an electric motor.

They have included pictures so there can be no mistakes about what they are talking about.

Hope this helps. It came from the source.

Steve.

So your saying my rat rod bike pictured below looks like and fits Ontario's definition of a "motor assisted bicycle", aka moped? The MTO has told me, and obviously others on here, that a creation such as mine cannot be registered as one so if it can't be registered as one then one would assume that it isn't.

 

[fasteddy]

Rockenstein, give it up. I'm trying to help people here not debate nonsense with you.

B.C. has some of the toughest laws you can imagine when it comes to motorbikes and thier like. The province is the insurance company. We buy every thing from them, from plates to licences to insurance for our vehicles.

They make the laws, enforce them through the police departments including the RCMP who are our provicial police.
They run the court system where they would love to debate points of law with you.

Super nice bike but how you think that I was comparing that to a moped is beyond me.
Reread what I said. Your style of bike like mine has to have an electric motor.
Take lots of photos so you have the memories after it is impounded.

My old Dad always said that to debate with a fool makes you one, so please keep posting away. I'll drop out and wait for your post about how your arrest and court date went.

You should however keep posting. I'm sure everyone else finds you entertaining.

Steve.

 

[Rockenstein]

I'll drop out and wait for your post about how your arrest and court date went.

Any of the Ontario HTA offences a law enforcement officer may try to pin on any of us Ontarians for riding our bikes are not arrestable offences. Ontario Compulsory Automobile Insurance act offences too are not arrestable offences.

Quit fear mongering the people Steve...

 

[The WANDERER]

fasteddy seems to be a bit of a fear mongerer, and like most ppl is mixing up and using legal /lawfull terms incorrectly and not in their correcr respective contexts

things that are "illegal" are not allways "criminal"
examples of things that are not "criminal" in Ontario:
- having no insurance
- having no licence
- using a non-registered "vehicle" or "motor-vehicle"

the HTA does have provisions in it's legislation and regulations that have jail time as part of the offence (upon conviction) but for more serious type things such as drunk driving, vehicular manslaughter, street racing.

Rock is right in that most things criminal are derrived from the criminal code of canada

Police can pull you over and charge you for most anything, but, does it really apply?, can you actually be convicted of it?

As I said last year, look into and read case law, get court transcripts (many of which is available online). Do your own research as you learn best when you take an active role in educating yourself. Dont just go by what some cops / MTO clerks say.

Driving while disqualified is a CCC conviction and prohibits you from operating ANY motor vehicle ANYWHERE in Canada (this includes a riding mower)

Driving while suspended (even just for unpaid fines) can net you charges of driving while suspended, but shouldnt really apply to MB's since an MB really is'nt a "motor-vehicle", but it might be a "motor-vehicle" depending on what you actually have, meaning if you've built it to actually be a moped "motor-assisted bicycle", then yes, the HTA defines it.

if it has a hand / foot operated clutch, and or gearbox with manually shifted gears, and or no suspensions, and or over 50cc's, and or weighs more than 55 kilograms, and or can travel above a certain speed, and or doesnt have a step through frame, and or doent have a VIN, etc.. then it does not meet the definition of a "motor-vehicle" / "moped" / "motor-assisted bicycle".

if you go to court and dont know how to talk in court, you could convict yourself of something you never did

other charges may apply depending on your individual record (if you have one)


bottom line is EDUCATE yourself

NOTE: Im not telling anyone to do anything (ride, dont ride), nor am I giving a consultation or advising anyone, simply my opinion, an educated one. I'm not responsible for anything you do.