CA. Law Info

[Scotchmo]

I can't let it die either. I like a healthy, civil discussion!

so you are saying no matter what sprocket in the back that the bike won't go over 36mph given enough time to reach max speed?

If a particular bike takes 2hp to go 36mph, than it does not matter how you gear it, it will only go 36mph on 2hp. You could gear it to go 50mph. But it does not matter even if you keep it wide open for 5miles, it can't go any faster (unless if you have a tailwind or go downhill). It will take more power to overcome the additional aerodynamic drag in order to achieve a higher speed.

i find this hard to believe. well i find it hard to believe these motors have 2hp like you are saying. i think they are closer to 2.5 like most advertisers say. however if i get pulled over the bike has 1.75hp and a max speed of 25mph. unless i get clocked going more than 25mph.

i also have to say that you can build 2 engines exactly the same and one is gonna make more power than the other one. i learned that when i used to drag race.
so your motor might only have 2 hp, but mine might have 2.5

I have advertisements showing 1.6hp all the way up to 5hp. When the stars are aligned right they put out more than 2hp. After 1000 miles I have to say that it has more power than it used to. I now see 21mph cresting the same hills that I used to manage at only 18mph. It might put out 2.5hp. Close enough so that the legality will not be questioned based on excess power. OK - they have about 2hp. If I get pulled over, I would say it has 2hp and goes 30mph on flat ground since that is what the law allows. Close enough.

 

[bairdco]

i don't understand what you're saying. are you saying that if my horsepower is only 2, than i can't go faster than 36, even if i gear it differently?

i dunno where you're getting your math, but gear ratios were basically invented to change the transfer of power. here's an easy to understand explanation of it all, with a non-motor bicycle.Bicycle efficiency and power -- or, why bikes have gears

and if your math proves i can only go 36, then i want a nobel prize, because i have proved it wrong with real-world, edisonian testing.

 

[Scotchmo]

i don't understand what you're saying. are you saying that if my horsepower is only 2, than i can't go faster than 36, even if i gear it differently?

i dunno where you're getting your math, but gear ratios were basically invented to change the transfer of power. here's an easy to understand explanation of it all, with a non-motor bicycle.Bicycle efficiency and power -- or, why bikes have gears

and if your math proves i can only go 36, then i want a nobel prize, because i have proved it wrong with real-world, edisonian testing.

I did not say what your bike can do. I said that a particualr bike that needs 2hp to go 36mph will need more horsepower to go faster. I don't know anything about your bike.

All you have proven is that either your particular bike has less drag or that your engine produces more than 2hp.

Using your logic, you could gear it to go 100mph. It won't work. The gearing will allow you to reach the maximum speed that your bike is capable of but it is the horsepower that is the ultimate limit.

If someone gives me the specifications for a particular chassis and only it's gear ratio, I would have no idea how fast that bike could go.

If someone gives me the specifications for a particular chassis and only the horsepower, I can get a fairly accurate estimate of the top speed.

In the link that you gave, look at the chart labeled "Power required (friction and air resistance)". Read the assiciated text. That pretty much says it all.

The reason you have gears is so that you can allow the engine to generate it's maximum horsepower regardless of the load conditions (grades, headwind, tailwinds, etc.). Just like the top speed on level ground, there is an optimum gear that allows the the bike to climb a hill at a certain speed. Since the engine is already putting out the maximum power, changing gears will not allow you to climb any faster. Only more horsepower can accomplish that. Your maximum speed under any condition is always limited by horsepower.

 

[bairdco]

i've got a grubee gt4 starfire (they claim 2.5 hp) with a 30 tooth sprocket. it goes 45mph, maybe more. it went about 50 with a 28. it'd go slower with a bigger sprocket, because that's what gear reatios do, they help use the available horsepower. i'm sure there's a limit somewhere, but i'm not interested in finding it.

i still don't understand what you're trying to prove, and i can't figure out if you're contradicting yourself, just messing with my head, or if your using some 4th century BC logic on me to brand me a heretic, so i give up.

as far as the law goes, i'll deal with them if and when they stop me.

 

[longhair]

i've got a grubee gt4 starfire (they claim 2.5 hp) with a 30 tooth sprocket. it goes 45mph, maybe more. it went about 50 with a 28. it'd go slower with a bigger sprocket, because that's what gear reatios do, they help use the available horsepower. i'm sure there's a limit somewhere, but i'm not interested in finding it.

i still don't understand what you're trying to prove, and i can't figure out if you're contradicting yourself, just messing with my head, or if your using some 4th century BC logic on me to brand me a heretic, so i give up.

as far as the law goes, i'll deal with them if and when they stop me.

I think this is the same logic as when my stomach was so big that i could'nt see my toes. Now I'm trimmed out and I happen to have put a 38 tooth sprocket on a stretch cruiser w/ a grubee starfire. That bike rolls at a true 35mph plus pullin my 218lbs and the sprocket was an over night success. I think I responded to the right forum question? haha

 

[avnostlga]

I would like to add something here as there seems to be a lot of back and forth issues regarding California Law and bicycles with motorized kits. Here's the short of it as told to me by the Department of Motor Vehicles, and the California Highway Patrol directly. This applies to all gas operated motors that meet the requirements of VC 405.

License to operate:
Licenses are required for any two wheeled motor vehicle that meets VC 405 and VC 406 requirements. What is important about this is that in VC 406 one of the requirements listed is (and it's in caps for a reason) "AND AN AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION". Since 99% of bikes with a motor built into them lack any form of transmission (a clutch to engage the engine with the rear wheel does not count as a transmission) the bicycles' that we build do not meet the legal requirements to be classified as a motorized bicycle or a moped. This was relayed to me by the CHP office on Brokaw Rd. in San Jose California (408)467-5400. So, ask yourself, "does my bike have any kind of transmission?" If no, then you do not have a motorized bicycle or moped. The legal definition of these bicycles is a "Bicycle that is Power Assisted". First and foremost a bicycle only, so all laws regarding riding a bike apply.

DMV Registration:
One short question can clear up the matter of CA DMV registration. "Does my bicycle have a Vehicle Identification Number (VIN)? If not, then the DMV will not permit registration of the bicycle. Local ordinances may apply to registering your bicycle with the police, but that is not related to the DMV. Sure there is a registration form to fill out for registering a Motorized Bicycle, but read above, many of us do not own legally defined motorized bicycles.

Now, I would not advise to get into a pissing match with a police officer over Vehicle Code. You will lose, even if you are right. However, if you are fined for operating one of these bicycles, take it before a judge. CA law is crystal clear on what defines what.

 

[Venice Motor Bikes]

avnostlga, read this thread..... http://motorbicycling.com/f17/real-deal-california-law-15268.html

 

[avnostlga]

VMB,

Yeah, I did read that thread. Bummer to the guy that got hassled. However, CA law is CA law. Newport may have local ordinances about these bikes. It is legal for local municipalities to amend CA vehicle code to be applied within the jurisdiction of that municipality, but State law is clearly defined. For example, where I live it is a breach of city ordinance to drive in the rain without turning on your headlights. Even if the sun is shining and it's just misting. People get cited for this all the time, but it sticks. Stupid, yes, but its ordinance. If that guy had a transmission on his bike, all bets are off, and the police are correct in citing him as they did. For a standard bike, with a 49cc engine kit, it's not a motorized bike, just a bike that is power assisted. After all, it's not as if the CC rating is stamped anywhere on the engine casing. Here in the Bay Area, a few people I know have been cited for riding these things, but only after running a stop or a red light, or speeding. Those citations stuck, but the operation of a motor vehicle...blah blah blah was all dropped on every occasion when it got to court.

 

[Venice Motor Bikes]

If you look around here, this topic has been argued over & over with still no end...
Basicly what it boils down to isn't what the law says, but what the cops want in order to be happy & leave us alone; & that thread clearly says what they want from us.

You can try to argue with a cop all day long about the law, but you'll still get the ticket!

This dead horse has now been whipped 1001 times!

 

[longhair]

Oh No! What should I Do? Because blah blah blah...............................................

 

[custommotorizedbikes]

You need a M1 or M2 License, License plate,headlight(2 headlights= high and low beam),taillight,mirror,horn,brakes and dot helmet and having these things and keeping you bike quit and not going over 30mph will keep the law off your back in California.Remember to stay off the sidewalks and bike only trails and show respect to others.

 

[bairdco]

i rode all over Newport Beach on the 4th of July. it was a madhouse. i was splitting lanes, weaving through meat pylons (pedestrians) and rolling through police barricades. even got permission from a cop to run a light because my bike's not heavy enough to trigger it.

i rode there in the morning on my new bike with no plates and when i left to get beer, one cop stopped me (by standing in the street and waving his arms) and told me they'd impound my bike since i had no plate. told him it was in the mail, he said he didn't care. told me to take it home and park it.

so i did just that. then i got on my old bike, rode passed the same cop, but on the other side of the street, pointing at my license plate and laughing. he just gave me that "aw shucks" wave and i kept cruising, at 45+ down PCH.

every cop but that one was cool, some even talking to me about my bike, giving me the thumbs up, whatever, and there was cops from all over OC. all it takes is that one jerk, though.

 

[custommotorizedbikes]

i rode all over Newport Beach on the 4th of July. it was a madhouse. i was splitting lanes, weaving through meat pylons (pedestrians) and rolling through police barricades. even got permission from a cop to run a light because my bike's not heavy enough to trigger it.

i rode there in the morning on my new bike with no plates and when i left to get beer, one cop stopped me (by standing in the street and waving his arms) and told me they'd impound my bike since i had no plate. told him it was in the mail, he said he didn't care. told me to take it home and park it.

so i did just that. then i got on my old bike, rode passed the same cop, but on the other side of the street, pointing at my license plate and laughing. he just gave me that "aw shucks" wave and i kept cruising, at 45+ down PCH.

every cop but that one was cool, some even talking to me about my bike, giving me the thumbs up, whatever, and there was cops from all over OC. all it takes is that one jerk, though.

I too have a fast bike that does 45 and was railing it around a sweeper turn and looked to the right and 3 cops had a guy pulled over. The pipe was a little loud but since then I welded on a muffle and i works better. The bike has all the legal stuff and a plate but the look on the cops face was amazing when they see me on my little road racer! When you bring attention to yourself you get it!

 

[760motorbike]

THIS POST IS MEANT FOR avnostlga, previous page. Sorry for any confusion.

Your post is completely inaccurate, and will most likely get someone a citation if they follow it.

I'm an LEO and I've written a lot of these citations, and not one has ever been dismissed for the reasons you quote. As a matter of fact, I've never had one dismissed for any reason. Here's why you're wrong.

As it regards the transmission: These motorized bicycles [VC406(a) gas powered, with pedals] have a centrifugal clutch which takes the place of the transmission. Since it functions as a transmission, then it is considered one, regardless of the fact that people try to claim it's only a 'clutch.' In the purest form, an automatic transmission serves two main purposes: first, to transfer power from the engine to the drive train; second, to disengage the engine from the drive train during deceleration/braking so that the engine does not die. I ask you, does a centrifugal clutch not perform both those functions, automatically by use of the throttle? Of course it does. Without any further manipulation or input required by the rider/operator, just like an automatic transmission. As I mentioned in my other post, I've only had one person try that, and they lost. $181 fine.

The reason why that is important, is because in the absence of a specific definition in the Vehicle Code, the 'commonly accepted purpose' -rule applies. In essence, it doesn't matter what you try to call it, what matters is what it actually does.

Registration issues: See my post under 'The Real Deal on California Law' forum, it will be very informative to you.

Lastly, I've had many people try and tell me... "...you're wrong, my [insert friend, other law enforcement officer, DMV employee, retired cop, judge, lawyer, etc, etc.] says I don't need that because..." My usual response? "Great, bring them into court with you and they can tell the judge that. Good luck."

If you give me the name of the CHP Officer you spoke with at their San Jose Office, I'll be more than happy to send him or her the appropriate information that their own agency publishes [CHP944] as well as the current law.

For all who read this, please remember: The CHP does not control enforcement standards for other law enforcement agencies in the state. While they may interpret certain sections of the vehicle code, and provide guidance as far as their enforcement policies, they are not controlling. As far as "the law" is concerned, Courts will consider two primary sources: Statutory law, or case law. There is no such thing as 'unwritten law.' And anything beyond that is opinion.

If you want to try and get the stuff in the gentleman's post by a judge in court, good luck. Happy motorbiking!

 

[ioillusion]

Here is some information I compiled on applicable CVCs; http://bit.ly/cZx9kz

 

[760motorbike]

Pretty good post, very accurate, except for the last paragraph. That's either from a very old CVC or some other type of document... Can you identify where you got that and what context it came from? Remember this: one of the biggest issues regarding motorized bicycles is this 'urban legend' that under 50cc it's pretty much exempt from everything.

That is the biggest issue which causes problems for riders and ends them up in court with citations.

There is no statutory authority that exempts motorized bicycles with an engine size under 50cc from the requirements of the California Vehicle Code when it comes to these issues regarding licensing, driver license endorsements, rules of the road, equipment, etc.

I hate to flog a dead horse, so pleae contact me if you have any questions. See my other posts also. Please have fun with your MB's but do so lawfully, and safely. Happy Riding!!!

 

[ioillusion]

That last paragraph is from here: Before Buying a Vehicle From Out of State - Be Sure You Can Register It in California FFVR 29

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

That last paragraph is from here: Before Buying a Vehicle From Out of State - Be Sure You Can Register It in California FFVR 29

A street motorcycle or motor-driven cycle year model 2005 and older with an engine less than 50 cubic centimeters (cc) displacement. Beginning January 1, 2006, street motorcycles and motor-driven cycles year model 2006 and newer, with engines less than 50 cc displacement, require an emission label certifying them to U.S. Environmental Protection Agency emission regulations, and may be registered regardless of mileage.

A 50 cc motorcycle would be classified as a motor-driven cycle which is
also a different classification from motorized bicycles / mopeds.

There is no such thing as a 50cc motorcycle under CA law.

A motorcycle is a vehicle whose motor displaces more than 150 cubic centimeters and has a seat or saddle for the use of the rider. It is designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground and weighs less than 1,500 pounds.

A motor-driven cycle is a motorcycle whose motor displaces less than 150 cubic centimeters.

Section 406(a) VC refers to a moped or motorized bicycle as any two or three wheeled device having fully operative pedals for propulsion by human power,
or having no pedals if powered solely by electrical energy,
has an automatic transmission,
and a motor which produces less than 2 gross brake horespower
and is capable of propelling the device at a maximum speed of not more than 30 miles per hour on level ground.

 

[ioillusion]

Any idea what the environmental requirements are in CA? I've run into a few suppliers online that won't ship to CA; supposedly due to environmental regulations.

 

[bairdco]

i wonder about the CARB laws, too. (California Air Resource Board.)

seems kinda funny that most of these engines come through Long Beach Harbor to get here, then shipped all over the country, yet can't be shipped back to Long Beach.

 

[MotorbikeMike]

Re: CA. Law Info?/ CARB Rules

Hi Bairdco, CARB has authority in CA much like EPA does Federally. IMHO it is a gross waste of State funds, and a significant restriction of CA citizens rights. IF the EPA is good enough for the rest of the country, why do we have a need to be further restricted?

The reason I say our rights are restricted by CARB is this; Testing is very expensive, and many smaller companies, like Royal Enfield, Ridley, a lot of the Chinese Scooter MFG's, and Lifan have either not paid CARB, and endured the testing rigor, or perhaps some have failed, due to CARB's restrictive policies, rules and laws.

Importing, at CA ports is big business, and much merchandise that cannot be sold and operated here passes thru, inspected, to go out to other destinations. In spite of the restrictive policies of CARB, the state seems not to want to cut down on that part of CA commerce.

The 2-stroke Chinese engines were never certified, as I remember, and what happened was the CARB widened the scope of their control of the public's rights to include smaller, less popular engine types, pulling them into their web of influence. To the best of my knowledge the Bicycle Engine is never mentioned, BUT, all small utility engines had to comply and there you have it! Hove you seen the videos of the "factories" these engines are assembled in? No-one supposes that those dirt-floor garages have money to burn for CA Certification, do we?

Thanks for asking this, as I am sure that it is a mysterious subject for many!

760, thanks for your clear input here, I have been championing getting the home-built bikes set up legally since 2005, and many times it seemed I was a single voice lost in the wilderness. I will admit tho, that I was unaware of CA Motorbicycle laws from 1999-mid 2005 myself! When I became a Whizzer Dealer, they brought to my attention the licensing of the Whizzer motorbike, and then it was clear to me that ALL CA Motorbicycles are required the Moped Plate, DOT helmet, M2 or better licensing, and basic Moped ideology.

Mike