World’s fastest Schwinn cruiser

Discussion in 'Motorized Bicycle Welding, Fabrication and Paintin' started by Tony01, Oct 5, 2019.

  1. Tony01

    Tony01 Well-Known Member

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    Front 20.5lb without brake plate, rear wheel 43lb, with 19” tires. Hub motor alone is 29lb. 65lb in the wheels alone, yikes!

    So the treats rims spoke holes are drilled 5.5mm. My guess is these are made for 11g spokes. The 10g nipples measure 5.75mm. I drilled them to 6mm and broke the edge with a c-sink.

    E1EF8FF3-2308-4C01-A3D2-31253A1C795B.jpeg

    Laced them up. My fingers hurt BAD from the 4 inch long, eighth inch thick spokes on the rear wheel. The last 8 spokes took me half an hour. Truing another night. Got a long way to go.
     

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  2. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Tony I always underestimate the completion time frame of the final few details. If only I had a dollar for each time I thought I'd be finished with a project in the next few days, well I'd like to spend those dollars!

    I've resisted the use of bondo on moto bikes, because I don't really like working with the stuff or glass either. Probably due to excessive exposure while building motorcycles and automotive projects. My sidecar build is probably on hold because of my reluctance to work with glass and resin. Just my Old guy thing, and there's a lot more to that than just bodywork prejudice.

    Rick C.
     
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  3. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Tony the wheels look super, great job. I don't lace anymore got old art in my hands and so I hire it done.

    Weight is a pet peeve with me that comes from my pedal cycle background. The bike marketing industry has spent untold millions on selling "lightweight" at high prices and touted each ounce of savings as a breakthrough improvement in the industry while exponentially increasing the price of each "so called" improvement. Real improvements, that benefit the non-pro rider in biking have been few and far between in my lifetime and none involve weight!

    Why do we think the biking world big boys, their paid press minions and the bike shops that support this industry have been so dead set against motorized bikes both I.C.E and especially now electrics? At every opportunity they've cultivated the attitude, which has been gleefully adopted by the "elite" snobs who willingly throw hundreds of dollars for a few ounces of so called improvement and feel good about it. They've developed a superior cult like attitude that shames those that differ with them. It's mindless, but look how well it's worked, at least to this point.

    The fact that major companies including the traditional bike elites, are starting to offer electrics tells me they know a real improvement when they are forced to. That very real improvement is electrics, arguably the biggest thing that's happened to biking since the advent of derailing. Now look at the spin they're still trying to sell....weight savings that increase the cost of premium bikes to multiple thousands of dollars while trying to disguise the fact that these bikes are electric while integrating batteries and motors etc. into the frames again costing thousands. This is how they throw shade on their own products because they continue to sell guilt for so called cheating with motor power. The riding public is still buying into & paying for the weight saving spin we've all been sold for more than fifty years.

    This comes back to weight and the hobby rider, not a pro racer, total weight of a pedal bike plus the load it carries is a concern. I use to ride with guys that rode $6,000. bikes & easily stayed with them on road trips on my $1,000. bike and it wasn't because of my great fitness, other than the fact that they weighed 30 to 50 lbs more than me. I saved thousands by just being trim and it really pissed them off. That example really means very little today on motorized bikes that produce plenty of power even 1 kw power offsets a lot of weight...one reason I see that legislation is being written that prevents meaningful power being used. Manufacturers still want to use the lack of weight formula to sell more bikes at higher prices for minimum innovation. Cosmetics aside bike offerings year after year rely on R&D dollars recovered decades ago.& electric development is the first money they've spent in a seriously long time. Their normal R&D budget seems designed to save on manufacturing costs rather than innovative product development. It's certainly hasn't shown up in product engineering...except in aftermarket parts offered by companies like Avid that they just bolt on and charge 100% more in markup costs to the rider.

    Motors have and are changing everything and only big government can halt it and without doubt legislation is currently underway. This stuff is all about the dollars not ecology or safety etc. Follow the money and you always discover the reasons and the culprits. Don't think it's a conspiracy it's just what business and government's do!

    My rant my bad.

    Rick C. .
     
    #43 indian22, Nov 22, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
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  4. Tony01

    Tony01 Well-Known Member

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    Well, let them buy into it. It’s those dumb weight weenies that have helped technology trickle down to the common man. Aluminum rims!!

    People would not be able to run high power hub motors on bicycle tires with chrome rims. Not without rim locks.

    Watching the weight on my build is more about performance. A hub motor is a compromise. An extra 29lb unsprung weight in a wheel is very bad. I got to ride a FS ebike a few months before I started the build; but not long enough to know how the heavy hub really feels. But there is a thing known as “hub motor stutter”. I was really considering going with the 10” core qs273 hub, which weighs another 13lb or so but can handle almost double the power. My vendor talked me out of it.

    Far as composites... I’ve done enough metal work to know I would never be able to get it looking good with metal. At least with glass I have a fighting chance to build a beauty in the shape I want. The fumes don’t bother me. Neither does bondo. Lot better than hours running the grinder. If I do all the sanding in one day it’ll only be one day of hives.

    Edit^^ and that right there is me trying to convince myself to finish it. Yeah it’s pretty horrible. Looking great takes work. I got real close to farming it out.
     
    #44 Tony01, Nov 22, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
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  5. Tony01

    Tony01 Well-Known Member

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    Pretty much, on hard cornering, it begins to feel like the rear wheel is sliding out in a stutter. I guess it’s better than suddenly sliding out. I’m hoping with a smaller tire I can put more torque down to slide the rear.
     
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  6. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Un-sprung weight is problematic to all vehicles and couples with the dynamics of COG & front to rear weight distribution during all riding transition phases of braking ,cornering & acceleration. At speed in a straight line un-sprung weight is mostly uncomfortable to the rider but it's continually putting wear on components especially tires and axle bearings even in straight line running.

    Small tire may work for you.

    Rick C..
     
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  7. Tony01

    Tony01 Well-Known Member

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    Work continues on the world’s most irrational schwinn. Took apart the fork somewhat. Decided that going with a >$200 aluminum hydraulic ebr is just paying for the aluminum parts. Otherwise it looks just as wimpy as a naked k10. The K10 is good already, a bit old and heavy but a hydro fork. Mine just had blown seals and the springs are way too soft (and one leg is bent). Ordering replacements for the seal and spring.

    I’ll save the cash for real performance upgrades. Trying to stay under $3000 and it’s just a few franklins away. I’m thinking hubsink and ferrofluid next, it’ll allow me to push very high power as often as I want.
     
    #47 Tony01, Nov 24, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
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  8. Tony01

    Tony01 Well-Known Member

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    Got my tires in. Trying to get a weight on a junky digital scale made for weighing humans. No good for under 14lb apparently (both sets of tires weigh 14lb, which I have trouble accepting). But I weighed the front and it looks like I took off 5.5lb. Rear appears to have lost 4.5lb. Still need to finish truing the wheels and actually mount the tires up, and get a more accurate reading.

    My swing arm got bent too. One dropout is 3/4” taller, and the centerline moved almost two inches to one side. One fork leg bent back at least an inch along with a cracked lower headset cup.

    I got my work “bent” out for me...
     
    #48 Tony01, Nov 29, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
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  9. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Weigh the man then the man holding tires and it's pretty then fairly accurate use of bathroom scales for lightweight items.

    Sorry 'bout the damage but you'll get it.

    Rick C.
     
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  10. Tony01

    Tony01 Well-Known Member

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    Good idea. I know the starting weight at each wheel, 74/91.
     
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  11. Tony01

    Tony01 Well-Known Member

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    So I tried bending the fork leg back in, failed. I could put more effort in. But it still needs seals, and stronger springs. So I’m looking at maybe 4 hours labor plus $50 to $100 depending on springs. Might as well get a new lighter fork.

    As I was thinking about this earlier I got that stiffness in my neck again (broke it in the summer), and I had a vision of riding the bike on a typical one-way trip of around 10mi, and the stiffness that would come with it. Also got a vision of getting love tapped by a car.

    I think I’m going to set this project aside for a few more months to a year.

    The reason this build is on this forum, and not endless sphere (ebike forum), is that in my mind it is just another gas bike build. Same shet just electric not gas. Nothing new to me really. Power system, frame, wheels, handlebar. Gas bikers always talk about how it’s not the same without the noise, vibration, or smell. However after having both, its apparent to me they’re essentially the same. They both have their strengths. I think electrics will eventually dominate. But commuting on a 212er gets old. It started to suck going deaf even with a freshly packed glasspack, and to be honest the 212er was slow as shet. Looking at the ride, I plug in my headphones and put my music on full. It doesn’t matter what I’m riding. I could be happy on anything. Except not now cuz of that neck stiffness.

    My need to build will be satisfied at work. Just joined a startup building something huge. Signed nda. Fabrication and machining on my part.

    There are other things I want to build. I think my purpose in getting into bikes was to build my 2-speed. I drew it up the first time around 2016 in chalk on a driveway while babysitting some young family members. It was washed away soon by the rain with the idea planted firmly in my head. Gotta build it before I completely lose interest in bikes. Probably gonna build up another 212er to test it.

    And get back into playing music. Been five years since I been in a band. I have been feeling it missing for two years bad now.
     
    #51 Tony01, Dec 12, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
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  12. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Tony I've enjoyed a lot of hobbies over the decades & eventually left all behind except riding and building, but I also left riding for about a dozen years at one point & picked it back up about thirty years ago by building motorcycles for a hobby. Creating something like your 2-speed goes hand in glove with riding, but being creative while doing something you enjoy is priceless. You are quite creative and intelligent so whatever you put you hand and mind to will be quite possible.

    I'm excited to hear your work permits a fulfilling outlet. I owned a design and prototype company for many years, primarily did government work where disclosure meant prison time. I really got to work on some interesting projects.

    I hope your injuries become less debilitating and eventually allow you to function normally. I've had my fair share of horrific falls, but healed well, yet I still feel them during cold weather. They are like old friends, irritating at times, but not about to get rid of them...just part of who I am.

    Rick C.
     
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  13. Tony01

    Tony01 Well-Known Member

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    Ordered fork seals. Gonna try and finish it up this year. Hah! That’s what I said this time last year!

    Straightened the rear end somewhat. Clamped it to a car lift for easy bending and checking for alignment. Went through probably a tank of MAP gas between two torches.

    For springs I think I’ll just cut the stock ones down to increase the spring rate. Springs do not exist in this size as stock. What this bike needs is 1.5x6 with about 30-35lb/in. I measured the stock springs to around 20lb/in. That seems really low.
     

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  14. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    I certainly miss my shop floor lift and the floor plates for attachment. I built quite a few tools for using it to stretch, adjust and bend. It was full length so easily doubled as a huge table formed out of 1" steel plate and carried by the overhead trolly and hoist.

    If you have sufficient travel after cutting I'd think the heavier spring rate would be quite an improvement to road handling. This year or next just numbers to distract us from living now.

    Rick C.
     
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  15. Tony01

    Tony01 Well-Known Member

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    It’s been about 10 years since I took any kind of exams relating to springs. Here’s kind of a rough shot. So I believe the stock k10 springs are estimated at 21lb/in rate. If I cut out two active coils I’ll get it up to about 25lb/in. This probably won’t be enough. Here’s the two estimates.

    Stock: B01FD17F-0003-4295-81E6-FE1DA8A6DDB0.png

    Cut: E0172755-83A8-44D6-9CE7-6E1203B932EB.png


    Spring rates are different but max load (bottoming out) remains the same. Good looking out Rick; you saved me an hour of my life.

    I’m going to call this company tomorrow.
     
    #55 Tony01, Dec 16, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2019
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  16. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Tony the spring calculator chart is a good tool. I have cut springs to increase rate but typically I lost so much travel in the process that I eventually opted for new springs that allowed full travel and increased, progressive rate. I was building off road trucks that measured travel in feet rather than inches and we still bottomed to the limiter straps at times...definitely not street machines. You do have to cut a lot of spring to gain much rate which can be a problem even on a street machine.

    I see you headed in the right direction.

    Rick C.
     
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  17. Tony01

    Tony01 Well-Known Member

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    Well they want the cost of a new fork just for the setup. I’ve setup more complicated stuff for half the price. Some people just do that to avoid prototyping.
     
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  18. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Sourcing is an almighty pain for the builder Tony. What's your move? Run what you have or alter a little, buy new forks or keep looking?

    Rick C.
     
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  19. Tony01

    Tony01 Well-Known Member

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    Sure is. I’ve been pretty lucky so far though.

    This is it. 36” long 4.86lb/in spring from McMaster for $8, same OD as stock and .025” clearance on the fork tube. Cut down to 6” it’ll be tits (calculator screenshot below). 29lb/in each and 200lb max load (pair) when it bottoms out.


    Got my rear wheel trued up and mounted up the tire. Michelin pilot street 80/90-17 on 1.4w rim measures 2.92w.
    24EF34E6-0805-40A4-BF5D-40D59B8C354F.jpeg
     

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    #59 Tony01, Dec 17, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2019
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  20. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Excellent Tony, patience + persistence makes one appear much luckier I've found. You did a great job lacing and the wheel set mounted with tire looks terrific and ready to mount. Once you get the springs loaded I'd think you to be well over the rebuild hump with some dollars saved due to relentless sourcing.

    Rick C.
     

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