What is an acceptable time to wait for warranty replacements?

[Toadmund]

The Flying Horse motor I bought last winter was date of manufacture 2009 and it had a needle bearing on the wrist pin.
I think it was dumb luck you got the motor that was stuck, lonely and forgotten in the back of the warehouse either in the factory in a dusty corner, or in the dusty corner at bikeberry.

They had modern parts but didn't know your motor was an old one with differing tolerances for parts fitment.

 

[Risingsunn]

Nor did I, until 2 days ago. But how long have they sold these motors and don't know the oddities of each brand they sell?

I can understand the wrist pin being a bit different, but come on, the bloody piston? They have sold these for how long and don't know that motor brand X requires piston type X and not type Y?

By the way how can you tell the manufacturing date on a Flying Horse? Or a Flying Horse from another motor? Just curious.

 

[Toadmund]

By the way how can you tell the manufacturing date on a Flying Horse? Or a Flying Horse from another motor? Just curious.

It was on the sticker on the magneto cover, it had engine information on it like the displacement, the factory, 'Jiangdu Flying Horse Engine Factory'.
When it was made, compliance, etc.

 

[Wickedest1]

It was on the sticker on the magneto cover, it had engine information on it like the displacement, the factory, 'Jiangdu Flying Horse Engine Factory'.
When it was made, compliance, etc.

i bought my fh from bberry in like september...no stickers on it...i dont even know if this is an actual flying horse...probably not im guessing

 

[Risingsunn]

Wow, what a novel idea!! I wonder if all the engines come with them and just get removed when they decided to paint them. It would be nice if all motor companies put plates on them with the info so we knew what we were buying...

 

[Toadmund]

Well, here is the sticker, removed because it says the displacement.
(legal reasons )

 

[Wickedest1]

seems this thread has turned into a whether or not this is actually genuine...my engine had no indication of being anything other than a generic ht engine...seems i may not be alone in this...

 

[Risingsunn]

OK, I have now come to the conclusion that I will NEVER buy from Bikeberry again and will try to dissuade ANYONE and EVERYONE from buying from them...

Here is the transcript of my chat with them today:

[12:42:14] Devin: Good afternoon, how can I help you today?
[12:42:23] Joshua Dobers: Good afternoon Devin!
[12:42:40] Joshua Dobers: RMA 1300040637
[12:43:12] Joshua Dobers: So the piston that was sent as a replacement was too big
[12:44:14] Joshua Dobers: I sent an email Thursday but have not heard back
[12:44:44] Joshua Dobers: I really don't want to have to wait another 20 days to get the correct part.
[12:45:44] Devin: What do you mean by too big?
[12:46:06] Devin: Does it hit the head of the cylinder? or does it not fit the cylinder all together?
[12:46:38] Joshua Dobers: It fits in but it sticks up about 3 mm or so above the cylinder
[12:46:55] Joshua Dobers: There were picts in the email I sent
[12:53:17] Devin: I'm going to see if we can send you a replacement cylinder cap.
[12:54:31] Devin: When I reviewed the pictures with my supervisor he's letting me know that the piston and arm look fine in the position it's in, but that you're more than likely going to have the piston slam against a hea
[12:54:44] Joshua Dobers: I don't thing at would fix it. It sticks up quite a bit and looks like its bigger than the one that came with the engine
[12:55:23] Joshua Dobers: And yes it would..
[12:55:45] Joshua Dobers: I didnt put the head on the engine when I saw that.
[12:55:57] Devin: Well, try that first, J
[12:56:00] Devin: *josh
[12:56:20] Joshua Dobers: What is a cylinder cap? You mean a head?
[12:56:38] Devin: Yes, sorry about that
[12:57:25] Joshua Dobers: lol, again that wont do it. the head doesnt have that much space inside for much piston
[12:58:01] Joshua Dobers: the piston should just BARELY cap into the head. Not poke up like that.
[12:59:43] Joshua Dobers: Trust me, that is a LOT farther up that it should be..
[13:00:13] Joshua Dobers: If you look at the pict of the old piston vs the new piston you can see the new one is longer
[13:01:38] Devin: Okay, Joshua we have one more solution for you, but this is going to be the last thing we can try
[13:02:06] Devin: I have a few crank cases with everything on them. They are unused, but there are some slight damages to them
[13:02:44] Devin: The drive sprocket case cover on one of them is cracked, so you'd have to swap the one you have now with the one we send
[13:03:05] Devin: But it's a complete bottom end, which should be able to match what you have.
[13:03:26] Joshua Dobers: So you can't just get me a new piston?
[13:04:05] Joshua Dobers: I spent 2 days rebuilding the bottom end of my engine to clean out the brass from the disintgrated bushing.
[13:04:06] Devin: We'd have to get the one you received back from you to match it
[13:04:11] Devin: Which would take even longer
[13:04:30] Joshua Dobers: You have the one I originally sent to match a new one with
[13:04:35] Devin: And honestly, there's no telling if I have them
[13:04:59] Devin: So again, I'm willing to send you a whole new bottom end to match the parts you have now
[13:05:37] Devin: It'll be another Flying Horse 66cc bottom end
[13:06:14] Joshua Dobers: LOL. Ok, I suppose that will work.

Wow, really!?!?! All I need is the bloody correct piston! Not another bottom end that, if it is TRULY a Flying Horse, WILL NOT WORK because the piston is STILL going to be the wrong damn size. And I love the statement "one more solution for you, but this is going to be the last thing we can try", and that means, if it doesn't work, I am SOL? When they send the bottom end they truly will have sent me an entire engine. Again I state, it would have been FAR easier to make sure the piston they sent as a replacement matched the one I send as bad.

Sigh.... At this point my engine is no longer a flying horse, its a dying hore.

 

[Highwaystar]

This may have been an inconvenience, but at least they are trying to get you taken care of. If a part is out of stock and they have to get it from China, well that can lead to wait time.

Once you get it going, all of this won't matter any more. Best of luck to you!

 

[Toadmund]

Sounds like they are more interested in getting rid of you than honoring the warranty.

Why do they have a warranty?

I refer people all the time from where I got my engine, they (BikeBerry) may have lost a few customers by jerking you around and further more from your negative experience and telling people.
They made a mistake with the piston, they sent you an old motor, why can't they just make you happy?
They want you to pack up and send your bottom end to get a another one? That's just making it into a PITA for you hoping you'll give up.

When you tell people their warranty is good, they will buy from them, but when they screw up and won't make it right.

That's bad.

People that want to buy a motor are reading this and BikeBerry will lose customers, don't they see or know that?

They should not have a warranty if they can't make it right.
Not the last thing they will try.

They should just suck it up and give you a whole new
motor with needle bearings, probably the kind you were expecting anyway.
With all the trouble and waiting you went through, they should just send you a 'new' motor.

 

[Risingsunn]

And the fun continues!! So Monday I was told that I was getting a lower end. I do a chat today and was told Ooops, it hasn't shipped.
Operator Devin has joined the chat.
[11:46:35] Joshua Dobers: Good morning Devin. RMA 1300040637. Perchance do you have a tracking number for the parts you sent?
[11:47:23] Devin: Let me see if I can get that for
[11:47:25] Devin: you
[11:48:01] Joshua Dobers: thanks!
[11:54:51] Devin: Thank you so much for holding Josh
[11:54:56] Joshua Dobers: np
[11:55:14] Devin: I'm seeing it's in waiting to be picked up and scanned. Your tracking number is ..........
[11:55:35] Joshua Dobers: Didn't you say Monday it was going to be shipped out?
[11:55:41] Devin: Sorry about the delay, but I'm seeing this is going to arrive in 2-3 business day
[11:56:12] Devin: I did, and my shipper was going to slap that sticker on there, so I'm sorry about the delay
[11:56:23] Devin: I didn't get it back there to him quick enough
[11:56:46] Joshua Dobers: lol, ok, so early next week then.
[11:56:54] Devin: Promise, Josh
[11:57:05] Joshua Dobers: thank you again.
[11:57:14] Devin: Thank you for your patience, Josh
[11:57:17] Devin: Is there anything else I can help with today?
[11:57:26] Joshua Dobers: nope, have a good one!
[11:57:33] Devin: Have a great weekend!
[11:57:37] Joshua Dobers: You too

This is now an ongoing painful joke. I go past my poor bike everyday and am reminded that I can't ride it. I am almost completely convinced that what they are sending me will not work regardless and that this is just an exercise in futility. I would LOVE to believe it will work, but at this point, I am just blah. The joy of my motor bike has turned into the pain in my ass.

Anyone know who sells Flying Horse motors alone? I think it's time to move on to something else.

 

[Risingsunn]

So after all this frustration I wrote an email to the owner of the company:

Good Morning Mr Lin,
My name is Joshua Dobers. In November I purchased a motor from BikeBerry.com. I made the purchase based on several posts from the Motorbicycling.com forums and the fact that you have the longest warranty for your motors. The motor ran great for a while but then the muffler failed. Your customer service team was great and had a new one out to me shortly after the defective one was returned.
Fast forward to the beginning of February. After a major breakdown I discovered that several components failed (piston, piston bearings, and piston rings) so I again contact Bikeberry support for assistance. Again they are courteous and offer to replace all damaged components and even waived shipping on a new gasket that I ordered to have shipped with the RMAed components. The initial RMA request was submitted to Bikeberry on February 3rd, the defective parts were received by BikeBerry on the 11th. I am not going to list all the communications back and forth, I have attached the email thread and a several chat transcripts from Devin, so you can read for yourself. 21 days later after multiple emails and contacts, I received the parts. However another part(piston pin), which was not replaced, did not work with the new parts. Bikeberry was courteous enough to send one out and I got that in under a week. This one however was identical to the one I already had and would not fit. At this point I decided to get creative, I modified my original part to fit where the new one would not. Now though, I discovered that ANOTHER part (piston) would not work with this engine, it was too long. Although I had sent my original back they never thought of comparing the old part that I returned to the new part they were sending to make sure they were the same size. So I chat with Devin once again and was told “that the last thing Bikeberry would try is to send out a new but slighty damaged bottom end for the same type of engine and it was going to go out the same day But that “but this is going to be the last thing we can try”. Four days later I chat with Devin again to see if the part was coming and am basically told, “Oops, we forgot to send it out” but that it should be on it’s way, indicating that it was NOT sent out.
I am frustrated Jack (if I may call you that). I am sure you can see that. I have been patient and friendly with your staff, but feel as I have been lied to when I hear things like “your parts will ship shortly” and “your parts are being processed for shipping” yet no email comes letting me they ARE shipped, or are the wrong part for the model of motor I was told I purchased. I will wait for the final batch of parts to come and I pray they are the right ones. After all of this I just want a good motor that runs. If the parts don’t work, I am going to ask for my money back for the entire kit. I don’t want to continue to fight this battle for the right parts for a cheap bicycle engine, it’s just not worth it when there are other companies that can offer the same products without the headaches. And if I can’t get my money back after all that I am going to file a complaint with the BBB and make sure I spread the word through the motor bike community that buyers should beware of the so called warranty that is offered.
So help me out here, help me to get resolution to an issue that should not have been that hard to fix in the first place. Thank you.


Sincerely,
Joshua Dobers

 

[Risingsunn]

Not an hour after I sent the email I received a response...

Hello Joshua,

Thank you for the contact. I'm very sorry to hear that you are having these types of problems with your order. I understand how this can be incredibly frustrating and I truly appreciate you working with us to resolve the problem.

I'm currently out of the office so I cannot access your order information but I wanted to shoot you a quick email to let you know that I did receive it and will be looking into the matter for you as soon as I return to the office.

May I have your phone number? I will give you a call as soon as I return to the office, perhaps that would be the best way for me to solve this issue as quickly as possible.

Jack Lin

 

[Risingsunn]

So today I received the lower end promised. It came much quicker than thought. But I am not going to get too excited yet. The replacement looks to be better quality BUT under the wrist pin is..... you guessed it! A BUSHING! Not a needle bearing as expected.
It would seem possible that I did NOT get a Flying Horse from them originally and have been trying to install Flying Horse parts on a different make engine.
HOWEVER, if this new lower end is a true Flying Horse, why is there a bushing? A good opinion from someone who has a good Flying Horse motor in from the last 2 years would really be helpful.

 

[Toadmund]

I meant to put this post here about the black needle bearings, I'll post the link again:
Here

 

[Risingsunn]

You know, I forgot to check the one obvious place that would give me a hint as to when the engine was made.. The magneto. Looking at the old labeled 12.5.15 it would seem that it is not an old engine sitting on the shelf for a few years which would lend support to it not being a Flying Horse if indeed Flying Horses have bearings.
HOWEVER the replacement is labeled 2012.11.8 which would put it only 4 months old. But why would a new motor come with bushings? This is just getting very confusing and does not shed any light on it's Flying Horse authenticity.

 

[Risingsunn]

Toad,
Thank you very much for that link, it seems that they are closely affiliated with the Jlangdu factory in China. So I figured who else would be better in helping identify whether EITHER is a true Flying Horse then the manufacturer themselves! So I wrote an email to English contact listed:

Good afternoon,
My name is Joshua Dobers. I would like to ask for your help in a matter concerning Flying Horse motors. Recently I purchased a bicycle engine kit from a USA vendor claiming that it was a “Flying Horse bicycle engine kit”66cc. However I have concerns that it may not be a true Flying Horse motor due to the quality of some of the components of the engine. The reason I bought the engine was because I had heard great things about Flying Horse motors but the engine I received failed after only a few hundred miles. Are there any markings on a Flying Horse motor that would identify it as such? Perhaps markings on the piston or crank? Also do Flying Horse motors have needle roller bearings under the piston pin? Any help you can give me would be appreciated. Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,
Joshua Dobers

 

[UVsaturated]

This is just getting very confusing and does not shed any light on it's Flying Horse authenticity.

That is because it is hard to contact the company directly. It would be nice if someone from their company would advise re-sellers of technical matters.

I've come close but not heard from anyone in their technical departments about these engines. I guess I am on global ignore from them or something! If you speak money to them, you can get some answers though, that is the truth.

They need to be a little less forbearing in giving out information.

 

[Risingsunn]

Believe it or not I did receive a reply to my email from the Flying Horse factory! Very short very simple and answers my questions:

Dear Sir

yes, Flying Horse motors have needle roller bearings under the piston pin. and our con-rod is engraved with Feima

thanks
NICK

So now I see that neither lower end I received is not a true Flying Horse. So I wrote another letter to Jack at Bikeberry:

Good Morning Jack and Bikeberry support,

I received the replacement lower end of the engine on Saturday, thank you for sending it out via Fedex. After putting the cylinder on it, it doesn’t appear to have the same issue that my original lower end had. It also looks like the con rod and crank are made much better and out of better materials. At this point I wish I could say that everything is running well and that the RMA could be closed. I took off the piston to check out the needle bearing and discovered this lower end you sent me has bushings, like my old engine not needle bearings. That would be fine, but if the bushings go out in this lower end like the original, would I be back to same issue I had in the first place of having nothing to replace them that would fit?

At this point I was rather confused. The original motor I purchased was supposed to be a Flying Horse motor (IE a motor build from the Yangzhou Flying Horse Gasoline Engine Factory in China), and the lower end that I was just sent was ALSO supposed to be a Flying Horse motor. However there are some glaring differences between the two, from the quality of the components, to the length of the con rod, not to mention everything I have read says that Flying Horse motors have come with needle bearings vs bushings for the last several years.

Since I had no concrete indication of either motor being a real Flying Horse, I decided to go directly to the source and simply ask someone from Yangzhou Flying Horse Gasoline Engine Factory if a motor from said factory has any unique markings and if they have needle bearings. And it appears they do. True Flying Horse Motors from the Flying Horse plant have a specific stamp on the con rod and do come with needle bearings. Unfortunately neither the original motor I received nor the replacement lower end has either. Thusly neither is a true Flying Horse motor.

I am starting to lose count of how many times I have not been told the truth by BikeBerry. I ordered a Flying Horse motor, presumably one made at the same named plant in China, is it possible to get one? Or should I just ask for a full refund and file a complaint with the BBB for false advertising? I would prefer the former and just to receive the brand of motor that I originally ordered, but it's up to you.

 

[Toadmund]

* jiangdu flying horse gasoline engine factory*


From BikeBerrys site:

All of the Flying Horse bike engines feature the latest upgrades, including high quality needle bearings and Japanese ball bearings on the crank. Older generation engines use cheap bushings that do not last, so don’t be fooled by other retailers selling out-dated engine kits. We make certain that all of our manufactures abide by strict quality control assurance measures and use the highest quality material so that we can make certain that all of our customers get only the best!

On the crank, no mention of wrist pin?