Thinkng of a build... Not quite a bike... Kitano K-16

[Bow]

I am thinking about a a build.

There is a Company in Japan called Snake Motors. the build a "Moped" called the K-16.

It is a 50cc or 125cc powered, vintage Board tracker styled bike that has really caught my attention.

I know the link is in Japanese, But...
http://www.snakemotors.com/page/product/story.html

Here are the Specs:

Total length (mm) 1920 (75.5")
Vehicle Weight (kg) 65 (143 Lbs)
Full width (mm) 790 (31.1")
Height (mm) 880 (34.6")
Wheelbase (mm) 1300 (51.1")
Minimum ground clearance (mm) 170 (6.7")
Caster angle 25
Tire size
Front wheel: 2.50-18
Rear wheel: 2.50-18
Trail (mm) 76

I only see 7 total bends in the Frame, and they might be able to be designed out with some careful engineering The Down Tubes does not really need those long bends.

Power would be a 212cc Predator and a Comet CVT.

I'm wondering what type of metal I could get away with to build a frame like this.

I was thinking 1" x 0.065 wall DOM for the Frame.

Yes I realize it isn't a motorized Bike, but you guys are the most experienced forum I've found for building projects of this size.

Thoughts?

 

[indian22]

Nice frame, closest thing to it is the Helmut frame that Jeff Wolf has used on several of his super cool fabrications, the double tubes make for a very stable engine mount and additional chassis strength as well. Plenty of front wheel clearance so the long radius in the front tube is really a stylistic element that complements the tire radius nicely. I like the large horizontal space of the interior chassis, looks large enough to house a Virago 250 cc V-twin 5 speed, if the vertical height to the lower straddle tube is there.

My Old guys Simplex is also a double tube chassis which I stretched to about the same wheelbase and with the vertical CG 125 cc Honda 5 speed weighs in 160 lbs. I used 1" DOM tubing and am adding a side car so I'd say your're safe using the tubing you mentioned, especially if you use grommets at any high stress connection points and employ good mechanical connections and all welds are first class. The Predator 212 is a proven power plant on many forum builds and I have one sitting on the shelf for some future project yet to be defined in my own mind.

Good luck and thanks for sharing the photos and link it's the first time I've seen this great looking frame or the completed bike. Rick C.

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

Big Boy Cycles made a much better looking Lifan type motor bike frame with a double down tube but they are sadly out of business.

The motor looks out of place in that japanese bike....

 

[Bow]

Nice frame, closest thing to it is the Helmut frame that Jeff Wolf has used on several of his super cool fabrications, the double tubes make for a very stable engine mount and additional chassis strength as well. Plenty of front wheel clearance so the long radius in the front tube is really a stylistic element that complements the tire radius nicely. I like the large horizontal space of the interior chassis, looks large enough to house a Virago 250 cc V-twin 5 speed, if the vertical height to the lower straddle tube is there.

My Old guys Simplex is also a double tube chassis which I stretched to about the same wheelbase and with the vertical CG 125 cc Honda 5 speed weighs in 160 lbs. I used 1" DOM tubing and am adding a side car so I'd say your're safe using the tubing you mentioned, especially if you use grommets at any high stress connection points and employ good mechanical connections and all welds are first class. The Predator 212 is a proven power plant on many forum builds and I have one sitting on the shelf for some future project yet to be defined in my own mind.

Good luck and thanks for sharing the photos and link it's the first time I've seen this great looking frame or the completed bike. Rick C.

Rick,

Thanks for the information. These bikes really caught my eye and I like the style as well. I was thinking of using Honda CT 90 17-inch, 36-Spoke wheels as well.
While I love the idea of a Virago 250 with a transmission, A 212cc Predator and a CTV are much more pocket friendly, and will probably gain less attention from.. the law... LOL

So if 1" DOM 0.065" Wall will work, is there an easy way to make bends at home? Conduit bender maybe?

Big Boy Cycles made a much better looking Lifan type motor bike frame with a double down tube but they are sadly out of business.

The motor looks out of place in that japanese bike....

That is a nice bike.

I agree the engine on the K-16 looks small, but overall the bike is cool (IMHO), and it probably has a lot to do with the license by cc limit in Japan.

They have 4 versions of the K-16

The Teke-Teke:

The Sports:

The Tokoro-Ver:

All are either 50cc or 125cc.

 

[indian22]

Bow did you look up the Helmut frame also referred to as the Phoenix manufactured in Arizona? If you are set on building your own frame and think it will save you money, don't bet on it unless you already possess the necessary skill sets or are really willing to spend the time and effort to do so while leaning the fundamentals of frame design. I don't mean to sound condescending or negative, but not knowing anything about your past experience in metal fabrication I'm shooting blind here. If you have these skills already and possess or have access to basic fabrication tools you are good to go. I've seen some amazing first attempt bike builds on this forum using only basic tools but much determination, but usually by men who have a background in fabrication or took the time to learn a lot before and during their build. So it can be done, but if I find a frame that works or I can modify to fit my design I've always found it cheaper to buy it, but sometimes I've just been forced to build one from scratch, like my Simplex.

To answer your question about bending tube. I've bent lots of tube and solid rod using all manner of devices and also just heat and an appropriate sized radius to bend around, hydraulic presses, pipe benders and commercial benders including mandrel which are the best for bending the materials used for frames and cages as they don't crimp the tube in the process and are, in the hands of an expert capable of repeating exact bends, which will be necessary for the dual tube design you want to duplicate. So I think it rather improbable to do these bends with any conduit bender I've ever used. Trial and error gets really pricey with DOM tube, Also you will also need to construct a frame jig to accurately secure the frame components in the proper relationship while welding. I won't go deeper into the details, but they are numerous.

Best of luck in this effort, If it can be dreamed up it can be built, just know there is a price to be paid one way or the other. Oh yes the Virago will get the Po Po's attention without tags etc. Rick C.

 

[Bow]

Rick, thank you for such a well written reply.

Yes I found the Phoenix Bike works Frame, and yes, it looks great, and there are some outstanding builds on those, really great looking bikes.... But I don't see a price?

I understand your concern about one's abilities, or the lack there of.

My current project is my Cycle Kart. It is a 6.5 HP adult go kart styled after a early era grand prix or hill climb special car.

It is nearing completion and will be covered with fabric, like the old door and fabric airplanes of yesteryear. The chassis is 1x3 0.065 steel tube, the body frame is 1/2" EMT conduit.

It isn't a bike frame, but I'd be willing to give a frame a shot....

 

[Ludwig II]

A straightforward way to make an old style frame is to use the Francis Barnett method. All bolted up lengths of straight tube.

 

[indian22]

Great looking frame and chassis, one picture and I'd say you have the relevant skill sets to proceed with good confidence.

I also agree the vertical mounting of a Predator 212 will look much better than the horizontal engine layout, though with the original dimensions show there is plenty of room fore and aft for the Predator "lying down" as well.

Price you just have to make the call as I've never seen one published by the company or any of the builders who've used the classy and well built Helmut frame.

Bow this is such a great hobby and building your own frame is an educational experience that can be very satisfying as well. A few years back building and or modifying an existing frame were the options available to most...buying custom one off frames was in another financial realm for the "bicycle stylist". Now we have some affordable frame alternatives from highly qualified small batch fabricator/vendors specializing in moto bicycles. I selected one such builder to supply a frame that I chopped up and modifified for my current Harley Davidson Peashooter build, rather than scratch build my own complete frame...the Sportsman Flyer frame is constructed of the best materials, workmanship and techniques... plus proven neck design at a price I couldn't come close to matching on a one off build; and I have the benders, welders and a full machine shop to work with when I so choose to do so. Seeing the little replica car I feel you need to build this bike frame, but if not there are existing sources available to supply first class frames.

I've been building and racing motor vehicles since the early sixties for myself and others and honestly the last six years that I've spent. as a hobby only that is based on bicycles... powered by pedal, engine or a combination, is the most fun I've had in motor sports. I hope you enjoy the experience. Rick C.

 

[Bow]

Great looking frame and chassis, one picture and I'd say you have the relevant skill sets to proceed with good confidence.

Thank you sir! it has been a fun project and I hope to get it completed soon.

Needless to say the Predator 212 isn't stock anymore... like the pics show...

I also agree the vertical mounting of a Predator 212 will look much better than the horizontal engine layout, though with the original dimensions show there is plenty of room fore and aft for the Predator "lying down" as well.

A vertical engine will definitely look more Correct, I'll be researching how to stand on up successfully...

Price you just have to make the call as I've never seen one published by the company or any of the builders who've used the classy and well built Helmut frame.

I'll try to give them a call, their facebook pages hasn't been updated since Dec 2013...

Bow this is such a great hobby and building your own frame is an educational experience that can be very satisfying as well. A few years back building and or modifying an existing frame were the options available to most...buying custom one off frames was in another financial realm for the "bicycle stylist". Now we have some affordable frame alternatives from highly qualified small batch fabricator/vendors specializing in moto bicycles. I selected one such builder to supply a frame that I chopped up and modifified for my current Harley Davidson Peashooter build, rather than scratch build my own complete frame...the Sportsman Flyer frame is constructed of the best materials, workmanship and techniques... plus proven neck design at a price I couldn't come close to matching on a one off build; and I have the benders, welders and a full machine shop to work with when I so choose to do so. Seeing the little replica car I feel you need to build this bike frame, but if not there are existing sources available to supply first class frames.

I've been building and racing motor vehicles since the early sixties for myself and others and honestly the last six years that I've spent. as a hobby only that is based on bicycles... powered by pedal, engine or a combination, is the most fun I've had in motor sports. I hope you enjoy the experience. Rick C.

Thanks again, sounds like you have a nice shop! I have a drill press, lathe, Hobart 135 MIG, Chop Saw... well enough stuff to build the cycle kart.

I am thinking of a board tracker style that will compliment the Kart... I think the hardest art will be alignment of the Head Tube and keeping everything square...

 

[indian22]

I like the thought of a board track style bike displayed with your hill climber... also your thinking about the right things what with a well designed head, lots of info available on front end design and keeping it all square is where building a frame jig comes in play, well worth the investment of time and money to build a good frame to secure the parts while tacking all the element in place.

Also Ludwig is spot on as usual with his thoughts on coupling a straight round tube frame with either no bends employed or at least holding the number of radius pieces utilized to a minimum. The examples he shows are quite handsome. You have good options. Rick C.

 

[Bow]

A straightforward way to make an old style frame is to use the Francis Barnett method. All bolted up lengths of straight tube.

Thank you for the Francis Barnett info, now you have me digging around the internet looking for photos of just the frame..

 

[Ludwig II]

Another straight tube option is the Cotton, now I'm reminded of them. More welding, less bolts. Supernerd strikes again!

 

[Bow]

Nice!

That is a great looking bike

 

[Ludwig II]

We tend to think either of using current or recent ideas or systems in many parts of our lives, but the past (especially when updated with modern materials) still has valid options sometimes. As an example, although it's not suitable for a board track or similar style, there were French and Belgian motorcycles that used stamped and bent sheet metal to create the frame.

Escol, Belgium

By George Roy, France,

http://www.yesterdays.nl/new-motorcycle-1929-500cc-cyl-ohc-p-2878.html?language=nl

and also the C P Roleo

 

[indian22]

Bow the examples Ludwig presents makes my case for building my last two bikes using multiple frame building techniques and matrials in each. I used fusion and fasteners to build the Harley Peashooter frame, while incorporating plate steel bolted and welded while coupled to 1" round tube & very short sections of square tube as well in the frame construction, bolted up here and welded there. As stated in an earlier post the frame I started with was DOM tube and that was built using lugged and brazed connections which is period correct fabrication technique employed in the Sportsman frame. My welding was done using MIG and Tig equipment so with Pat's brazing & a little TIG work as well, multi fusion technique was employed in the welds of the Harley and coupled with many grade 8 fasteners, almost all of which were capped off with brass acorn nuts, as well. Both the Simplex and Harley had bent sections of frame that were joined to straight tube of the same diameter by inserting a piece of smaller diameter DOM tube in each and drilling holes in the outer tube then plug or rosette welding the drilled positions. Then running a bead at the tube butts. Which demonstrates the use of straight tube fabrication coupled to appropriate "bends". This is useful when learning to bend tube or using a less than skillful outsource for making small sections of bent tubing; latter to be joined to straight sections using the previously described tube joining process. Better to make mistakes on short lengths of DOM tube than on full lengths.

That brings us to using flat plate in a frame, not just as a grommet for strength. Attractive and strong joints to tube are easy to achieve using plate. The plate itself can take whatever shape ones imagination can conjure. Large or small, simple radius or artistic rendition...up to the designer. I used plate in the Harley build just as the original HD race teams did, to add a removable engine cradle "Keystone" to the drop loop Harley frame. Round and flat shapes, bolted and welded...worked well for Harley and me as well.

Just a primer, though it might give reason to consider that good fabrication isn't limited by either/or solutions. Rather employing if/then thinking coupled with good fabrication technique and a feel for the style you want to present, sets you free to create. Rick C.

 

[Ludwig II]

Forgive me! I am throwing another method at you. Scitsu, a collection of motorcycle racers came up with various ideas in the 1970s. This twin plate frame is an example. Held apart by spacers. I don't know if this frame or it's twin was the one used in British moped racing, but the moped racer had held a 125 racing 2 stroke, been crashed at 100+ mph, I saw it fly 20 feet in the air on a rock outcrop, and it was damn near indestructable. They tried selling the idea to the motorcycle industry, I think it would have been better suited to army motorcycles.

http://www.racebikemart.com/adverts/SCITSU__1265102316.php

http://martinsquiresautomotiveillustration.blogspot.co.uk/2015_10_01_archive.html

 

[Bow]

Ludwig,

Thanks for the links. great looking bikes and yes, quite a few different ways to build a frame indeed.

But I am still interested in the Look/Style of the K-16.

I think I have located some Forks that will work as well:
https://www.1977mopeds.com/product-p/774841.htm