OMG I have to tune a CNS!!! Help

GoldenMotor.com

SdCruizer

New Member
Feb 15, 2012
108
1
0
San Deigo
okay
I just placed an order for other parts but not the jets since I wasnt sure

so you think its cheaper to get 3 sizes larger one set smaller $4 each
or to try to find the correct drill bits plug and solder if I go to big

im still not sure if I needed to upjet or not
now im wondering because of the long high idle if I didnt have an air leak around the intake, I read that here somewhere happening
even though I used a touch of white grease to press it in as it was so tight

because if anything it felt like it was bogging or just not revving high enough like too rich but from all I read it seems like they come too lean already

im at sea level BTW

I have no patience for carb tuning if it doesnt go smoothly
on one scooter I spent 3 days trying all my jets, needle positions
went through 2 taks a day of gas
I did get it set fine but I got burnt out on carb work
 

biknut

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2010
6,653
475
83
Dallas
okay
I just placed an order for other parts but not the jets since I wasnt sure

so you think its cheaper to get 3 sizes larger one set smaller $4 each
or to try to find the correct drill bits plug and solder if I go to big

im still not sure if I needed to upjet or not
now im wondering because of the long high idle if I didnt have an air leak around the intake, I read that here somewhere happening
even though I used a touch of white grease to press it in as it was so tight

because if anything it felt like it was bogging or just not revving high enough like too rich but from all I read it seems like they come too lean already

im at sea level BTW

I have no patience for carb tuning if it doesnt go smoothly
on one scooter I spent 3 days trying all my jets, needle positions
went through 2 taks a day of gas
I did get it set fine but I got burnt out on carb work
I wouldn't bother getting any that are smaller. Get the next 3 or 4 larger sizes.
 

SdCruizer

New Member
Feb 15, 2012
108
1
0
San Deigo
no matter what I do, get jets or drill I will make sure to have those at the ready when I decide to battle the carb again

I hate carbs
 

SdCruizer

New Member
Feb 15, 2012
108
1
0
San Deigo
I was talking to a guy I get some of my parts from, he has a whole garage full of these engines and is really into them.
I asked about my carb and he said they come way to rich. This is exactly what I had thought by the performance I got from it. Yet everyone here says you have to drill the jets larger.
The guy said these carbs should be used with an expansion chamber pipe too

I think those drill bits are coming today but now if I need to go smaller they are useless. Luckily I found a case of bits here and I think they may go smaller too

But now im debating weather or not to even attempt to tune that carb, since it will most likely take alot of time
plus how much work it takes to get the throttle changed out
 

SdCruizer

New Member
Feb 15, 2012
108
1
0
San Deigo
well also if you read alot of the threads alot of drilling was done because no jets were available, and on the real cns carb. jets are available now
mine isnt a real one its whatever BGF sells, maybe its not leaned out like alot of ones came because of epa bs


now im no carb expert, but im really good at tuning rc engines
and I have tuned a few scooter carbs, dirt bike carbs and know when it feels lean or rich

mine felt rich, plus a loss of 4 mph over stock is a good sign of that
 

biknut

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2010
6,653
475
83
Dallas
well also if you read alot of the threads alot of drilling was done because no jets were available, and on the real cns carb. jets are available now
mine isnt a real one its whatever BGF sells, maybe its not leaned out like alot of ones came because of epa bs


now im no carb expert, but im really good at tuning rc engines
and I have tuned a few scooter carbs, dirt bike carbs and know when it feels lean or rich

mine felt rich, plus a loss of 4 mph over stock is a good sign of that
What's your spark plug look like?
 

SdCruizer

New Member
Feb 15, 2012
108
1
0
San Deigo
never checked on the new carb, I only messed around with it a short time
put the stock back on, since I had read so much about having to drill it out I figured I would have to wait until I get the drill bits

acceleration from a stop was very smooth, but top speed seemed way to rich
also it would rev really high on idle, then take forever to climb down to a low idle

I read about intake air leaks maybe I had that, mabe it was the air screw
I could only keep it like 1/2 turn out any more and it would die

so if I ever try it again I will try to seal the intake, even though I did have white grease on it to help slide it on maybe I had a leak, not sure



now my plug now with the stock carb upjetted for the air filter looks fine
 

nightcruiser

New Member
Mar 25, 2011
1,180
2
0
USA
I have heard it said that with 48cc motors people need to lean up their carbs, I know for a fact that with my 66cc motor running a CNS carb was way too lean. I had to drill out my jet a bit and then she came to life....
Asking around I found the consensus is that the stock CNS main jet opening should be the size of a #70 drill bit, mine was smaller, I could only fit my #72 drill bit through it. Before I drilled it out she ran good up until around 75% throttle, above that she bogged bad. I was able to determine the condition above 75% throttle was lean by riding the bike into the throttle range where it bogged, while bogging I opened the "choke" enrichment jet and the bogging went away. Since the extra fuel from the enrichment jet fixed the bogging I knew it needed more fuel, so I drilled.
I first drilled from the original #72 opening size down to a #69 (by mistake, I was aiming for #70 but mixed up the drill bits) When I put the carb back on the bike the bogging was gone above 75% throttle and she ran great over all. I am very happy with my CNS carb now. Since then I have opened her up to #66 drill size with not much improvement, I needed to increase the air flow at this point I think to see any more improvement but winter was setting in and I didn't get a chance.
A couple of observations about the CNS carb...
First of all, lots of people think the white spacer/bushing is the seal, it is not. The seal is that black rubber grommet that is inside the carb neck, the white spacer just holds the carb in place. You MUST seat the intake on the BLACK GROMMET properly or you will get air leaks. I push the carb down the intake until it bottoms out, then kinda wiggle it a bit and push it on that last little bit so it seats into the black grommet and then tighten it down. I have never had to use any sealer on my carb to prevent air leaks when I install the carb in this manner.
Secondly, the "choke" on this carb is an extra enrichment fuel jet, not an air restricting choke. This jet is extremely small and clogs easily, if this jet clogs you will have poor idle and low throttle range performance. My bike rode rough at low speeds until I reamed out the crap from the enrichment jet, after that my low end smoothed out nicely.
Finally, I find the float on the CNS carb has a strong influence on how it functions. You may need to adjust the float setting a bit to get your carb performance where you need it, specially if your carb is not mounted level.
This all may seem like a lot of work, but the carb is really simple and not hard to work on at all. When you remove it from the bike take the two screws off the top and the cables pull right out, now the carb comes off easily without being attached to any cables. There are 4 screws that hold the bowl on, inside there aren't many parts, the only parts that come out are the float, its pivot pin and the needle that is underneath it. Thats it. I fiddled with the float adjustment a couple times before I got it right, and took a very thin wire and pushed it through the enrichment jet to clean it, which I do every time I open her up now. The hole is so tiny I had a hard time getting something that would fit through it, I ended up stripping the paper of a wire from a garbage bag tie and used that bare wire. The first garbage bag tie I tried was from a quality bag, the tie was plastic covered and the wire was too large to fit (believe it or not). The next one was from a generic garbage bag and it was a paper covered wire which was thinner and fit through the enrichment jet perfectly. I will state it again, cleaning out this enrichment jet is very important for good idle and low end smoothness on the CNS carb.
If I read the message properly, you purchased a CNS carb as an upgrade and quickly gave up on it and went back to the NT or Speed carb. Most people seem to be doing the opposite, they have a CNS and buy an NT or Speed to replace it. At any rate, I would like to encourage you to work with the CNS carb a bit when you have time, keeping in mind what I have written above. A little playing with the float and getting those jets properly sized and cleaned should get her running well, I think properly tuned you might be more satisfied with the performance of the CNS carb than your stock carb....
 

Greg58

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2011
5,363
2,590
113
66
Newnan,Georgia
N/c it depends on each engine what size the jet should be, mine is on a48cc with a sbp filter and I'm at a 64. I dont recomend this size but thats what mine likes, it by far faster than the bike with the nt.
 

biknut

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2010
6,653
475
83
Dallas
N/c it depends on each engine what size the jet should be, mine is on a48cc with a sbp filter and I'm at a 64. I dont recomend this size but thats what mine likes, it by far faster than the bike with the nt.
Just to clear Greg, you're talking about a # 64 drill bit, not a size 64 jet?
 

nightcruiser

New Member
Mar 25, 2011
1,180
2
0
USA
I agree, the jet needs to be tuned to the motor. Depending on the flow of the air filter and exhaust on your system etc, you may need a bigger or smaller jet.
I would say the best thing to do is get the air filter and muffler all set the way you want it first. Evaluate how she runs with those parts in place, particularly the condition when running WOT. Depending on the WOT condition, open up the main jet step by step with a set if miniature drill bits until she is running properly at WOT, then adjust the "e" clip on the needle to set conditions right for the mid throttle range. If she happens to be rich at WOT you can either buy a smaller jet or solder the jet closed and drill back a smaller hole in it.
I bought a set of drill bits on Ebay for $5 bucks that covered sizes from #61 down to #80, perfect range for jetting these carbs. You might want to have a micrometer too, caues the drill bits are almost impossible to tell apart otherwise if you get them mixed up....
As someone stated, the CNS jets are now available for purchase, and a CNS carb rebuild kit is cheap and comes with a complete set of jets for the carb, so if you screw up its not a big deal....
 

SdCruizer

New Member
Feb 15, 2012
108
1
0
San Deigo
I finally got my cns clone carb tuned
I had to down jet it. Ended up using drill #70, also equals a #70 jet too
I found stock to be a #72 jet. I knew it was too large the way it ran last week when I tried it, even though it seemed everyone says to up jet them.
I did try a #72 drill bit too and got same top speed, but I figured might as well go a touch richer. Had to adjust the needle jet to get rid of slight bog.

One thing I can say, its really helped acceleration. I use a cen clutch and stock carb it would make it chatter accelerating from a stop. Now this new carb the clutch is silent and engages stronger. Nothing to blow you away but little things like that is nice.
I want to run it harder before I check the plug but im sure its set good, if anything little rich.

So from alot of pics seems all the extra nipples just vent to the air so I put short pieces of hoses on them. Only one spits up fuel I think its the float vent cant remember.

Throttle also feels different must be the spring, maybe its softer but feels good. I hate the remote choke lever
tested in about 60F temps
tomorrow should be warmer so im curious to see how it does

also the carb is very quiet compared to the stock with a large filter

I have the same stretch of road I gps my top speed on in front of the house, I gained 2 mph over the stock carb
 

SdCruizer

New Member
Feb 15, 2012
108
1
0
San Deigo
Got a question
still messing with my carb, I finally counted the idle air screw turns and im only 1/2 turn from tight

any more and it bogs like crazy at idle then dies
now to me this means the pilot jet is too rich correct
since my main was way to rich, it only makes sense

messed with it again tonight, changed the main again
now so far I have it at a #72 drill bit and needle up one notch from center (leaner)
tried richer and all the way lean with the needle

I have a pack of numbered bits in the range of 61-80

I noticed when its cold it takes a long time to warm up, like 4 min until it will hold idle

should I mess with the pilot jet? any idea what size it is near so I can see if I have any drill bits

or leave it as it is, I think its doing pretty good

once warn it does idle just fine

so far plug is dry, but blackish on the porcelain
means rich but tomorrow I will be riding it hard and will check then
ive only been going around the block when jetting it
 

biknut

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2010
6,653
475
83
Dallas
Got a question
still messing with my carb, I finally counted the idle air screw turns and im only 1/2 turn from tight

any more and it bogs like crazy at idle then dies
now to me this means the pilot jet is too rich correct
since my main was way to rich, it only makes sense

messed with it again tonight, changed the main again
now so far I have it at a #72 drill bit and needle up one notch from center (leaner)
tried richer and all the way lean with the needle

I have a pack of numbered bits in the range of 61-80

I noticed when its cold it takes a long time to warm up, like 4 min until it will hold idle

should I mess with the pilot jet? any idea what size it is near so I can see if I have any drill bits

or leave it as it is, I think its doing pretty good

once warn it does idle just fine

so far plug is dry, but blackish on the porcelain
means rich but tomorrow I will be riding it hard and will check then
ive only been going around the block when jetting it
The air screw only adjusts the idle. If it idles good, that's all you get from it. Most of the CNS have good idle. That's all most people to start out with. Mine idled great out of the box, but as soon as you gave it the gas it fell on it's face. It only did about 10 mph. Most people report something like that.

I had to drill the main jet larger to get it to run at higher speeds. You can tell by turning on the enrichner. If that makes it run better it's too lean. I'm talking about when it's warmed up. I drilled the main to a #64 drill bit.
 

SdCruizer

New Member
Feb 15, 2012
108
1
0
San Deigo
my carb has 2 screws, but it was bought from bgf so im sure its not a real cns but looks like them

my idle is great warmed up, but when cold takes 3-4 min of me revving it to keep it alive. I think I will just twist the idle screw 1/2 turn when cold then when warm twist back to lower idle

I have tried the enricher when riding, it bogs and tries to die with barely any
tells me im flooding it





my carb you had to push on very tight for it to fit on the intake tube, also put a little sealant just to ensure a good seal but that was just done yesterday. It seemed to seal fine during all the tuning

but when I originally installed and tried to tune it idle was all over the place
I must of had an intake leak and I wonder if I didnt how it would of worked then