My 1st bike/trike/moped project ever

[vsavoldi]

Hey everyone, Lots of good information and great projects on the forum!

Here's mine when I got it.

Here's a video once I cleaned it up a bit and pulled the gas motor.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/MrgvfapmdriOEDipLVUVOd40RariheDeOtf3l5HavKs?feat=directlink

More videos and images are at the link below.
https://picasaweb.google.com/114640...authkey=Gv1sRgCKbEkZHS64GxsQE&feat=directlink

Rake and Trail
The initial images with the gas engine the trike has a positive trail which make is want to dive into a turn which make is want to flip over very easy and not corner very well. Currently I have flipped the forks backwards which gives me a funny look but allows about 1 inch of trail for a nice ride.

I have done some research on rake and trail and have discovered many ways to get into the range of negative trail for better handling. I'm going to change the headstock rake by adding 15 degrees to get more of a chopper look and get proper handling.

This will most likely mean I will need longer forktubes or shorter lowrider cranks.

I am not a very good welder but I do have a gas welding setup and I seem to bet better every weld.

Anyone have any good tips to share about gas welding? I have a donor bike I am going to use to practice on before I do much of anything to the trike.

The 2 stroke gas engine
It does not seem very powerful at all and perhaps even the centrifugal clutch is slipping more than it should. I will not be keeping it on this project for a couple of reasons.

No gas engines on our local Bike Paths period, no power at all but with electric I can still use it up hills as long as I am not causing a hazard.
I plan on taking my dog many places and she does not like engine noise and would not enjoy the ride.

So basically at this point no gas engine but I want Electric.

What Electrics to buy?

So this is why I am here. I have been looking around quite a lot and it seems like there is a ton of information available about motor specs, battery sizes, battery types, hub vs motor, etc...

What I don't see or just can't seem to be able to find is any good charts on the effects of Voltage, Wattage, unitWeight, AmpHours, and any way to correlate how it all works out on the road (distance & speed).
i.e. if I get a 36V-800W motor how does that compare to 24V-800W or 48V-800W?

I don't necessarily want to go fast, I'm thinking of maybe 20/25 mph top speed with a cruising speed of 15mph. I do plan on pedaling quite a bit but you all know better than I how much that works out once you have power available.

I think I want to have a front hub motor, that perhaps will be just enough to maintain a cruising speed on level ground for the longer hauls. and then a nice motor for the rear to get me up to speed and to help on the hills.

Any ideas? am I on the right path? should I get the rear motor 1st and then maybe the front later? would the front motor have enough traction if I got a powerful motor and used it to get up to speed?

Brakes
This ride currently has no brakes and I'm having a hard time deciding on what to do.
The front OCC chopper style forks will not hold a caliper for disc brakes. No crossbar for clamping brakes.
The rear end axle is securely mounted to the right rear tire and the left rear tire is freewheeling.

My donor mountain bike has cantilevered brakes but I would need to weld the studs onto my forks, this seems scary as welding to the forks will weaken them correct?

Can a front hub motor be set up to do regen braking and would that be enough to stop me?
Any ideas are greatly appreciated!!

My Overall plans

Install front hub motor and batteries. (hub motor should allow future disc brake mounts)
Install some sort of braking.
Install lightweight wood Chariot style rear end (see images above)
Ride the heck out of it!!

Phase 2 may be part of Phase 1, not sure yet..
Change Headstock rake.
New fork tubes or entire fork assembly
Front Disc brakes on new forks
2nd motor for the rear

My budget is under $1000 total and I ended up paying $500 for the trike (not counting the $75 in gas to go get it). so already unless I get a slamming deal on motor and batteries I am over budget already- lol

 

[chainmaker]

Thats a cool trike, wish the pic was bigger.

 

[vsavoldi]

Thats a cool trike, wish the pic was bigger.

Just click the 2 links below the small image. There are large images and videos.

edit, yesterday I broke the chain and by the end of the day I have a new gearset and chain setup. It really needed it. I'm installing the gas engine back on it today just so I can play around with it while waiting for the electronics.

 

[vsavoldi]

Update: If double posting is not allowed for project updates pls let me know.

I have installed dual brakes on the rear tires, They work pretty well although I discovered that I will need to relocate the crossmember to below the chassis as the power side of the chain when in the smaller gears has to climb over the aluminium tube. D'oh!

Temporary quad motor setup.
When you check out the images you will see some temporary electric motors I installed. They were wimpy and used the tires and friction drive. Got the rig to about 10 mph so would be some help uphills. I was able to borrow them from a neighbor but I don't like the setup so it was a great test to tell me I didn't want to go that direction.

I have ordered 3 12v-36AH SLA batteries and a whopper 36V 750W motor. New drive chain and sprockets are also on the way, tomorrow I call to make sure that a 36v controller will work with the keyed thumb throttle I want to use. With the 750W and the sprocket gearing I choose I should get 25-30 mph on the flat.

I found a great site for parts and they are only about 60 min away (1 day UPS) from me. http://www.electricscooterparts.com/

The Entire collection of images from my project are in the link below.

 

[Dave31]

Sweet! Subscribing so i can keep up to date on this build

 

[vsavoldi]

Does anyone here have experience with battery setups?

I am hoping to make charging as simple as possible. Ideally I would like to have a small gauge extension cord that lives on the bike to pull out and plug in. This keeps the chargers onboard and connected at all times.

Here's my puzzle...

3 batteries all wired together for 36volt
3 12v chargers as they are best for the battery.

How can I wire everything together so that to charge all I need to do is plug the chargers into 110VAC.

I think relays should work to break the 36VDC system. is this needed? Or can I just leave the crossover wires connected and just supply each battery the 12v for charging?

My thinking is using one of the chargers +12V to trip 2 relays (normally closed) disconnecting the crossovers. will this work, do I need the diodes?

Any and all comments, questions, answers are greatly appreciated. I would hate to fry the smart chargers..

As a less desirable alternative.. a manual switch.

 

[george_n_texas]

You have those batteries in series to get 36 volts just wire a harness with a quick connect in parallel (wire comming together from all negative posts and another from all positive posts)
I'm not familiar with the wiring of the controller so as a safety measure I'd unplug the batteries from the controller while charging.

 

[vsavoldi]

You have those batteries in series to get 36 volts just wire a harness with a quick connect in parallel (wire comming together from all negative posts and another from all positive posts)
I'm not familiar with the wiring of the controller so as a safety measure I'd unplug the batteries from the controller while charging.

I'm not 100% sure but I don't think the smart charger can do it's job if connected to 3 batteries. A standard charger would handle that fine as long as I disconnect the 36v connections.

thx

 

[george_n_texas]

I'm not sure what a smart charger is but the ones for cars I don't think would hurt anything to wire in parallel to all 3 batteries if you have time the slowest charge is best for the batteries to last and deep charge better...good to run them a little low and then fully recharge them every once in a while (may not apply to all types of batteries). Most batteries don't like to be ran all the way down. Hope this helps.

 

[vsavoldi]

Every bit of insight helps, thx!

A smart charger for sealed lead acid batteries has 3 stages.

1.) A soft start mode, where the voltage is slowly raised to get to to next stage.
2.) Full Charging mode, where you "pump in the power" until it tops off.
3.) Floating charge, a maintenance charge.

That is supposed to let you get the maximum usage of the SLA's.
(edit) I found a link with more detail http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery

Project update:
Looks like all my parts will be here by Friday (crossed fingers) so this weekend is prototype build time!

 

[vsavoldi]

Assembly Day

I got to work on it a bunch today.

I worked on the motor mount and chain Friday evening.

I ended up trimming the lower plate and recessing the screws holding the motor as they were in the way of the chain.

I will take final pictures after powder coating. I may have to put an adjuster assembly to keep the chain tight, testing will tell.

Today started with making the base plate for the chariot so I could mount the batteries. The batteries will eventually be covered and secured in place with wood but for now it's all about Bungee to the rescue.

I made the entire wiring harness today, both 36V for the motor/controller and 12V for the Lighting.

The 12V system goes through a 15a fuse to a lighted switch.
The 36V system has a 40a Breaker which will be mounted for external access with the final electronics box.

So final wiring system, brakes system, pedal system and motor system are 99% complete. I need to install a main battery disconnect, re-route the 36V+ lead and basically it's ready for the first test ride.

 

[vsavoldi]

Well, everything is together but I have a small problem, the controller turns off after 6 seconds.

More info at this thread http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?p=416591#post416591
Since my posts have been moved I will just post the info here and we can close the other thread.


I just put together a 36v 750W system. The controller/motor seems to run just fine without a load but as soon as I apply a load I get about 6 seconds and the controller shuts off. I have to switch power off then back on again.

lets see.. Specs...

Motor - from Ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...E:L:OC:US:3160
Controller from http://www.electricscooterparts.com/ Item # SPD-36750A
Throttle from http://www.electricscooterparts.com/ Item # THR-68
Batteries are 35ah SLA in Series.
50a breaker on 36v+
50a Key Switch on 36v-

12v+ lead coming off of one of the batteries to power 12v lighting.
15a fuse on 12v+
12V- Shares 36V- ground battery and key switch

Once I get the controller issue worked out I will build the sides to the chariot and a box to cover the batteries. It's going to take me a couple weeks to build the final chariot styled rear end. I want to get some major seat time with the dog riding along before I take the time and effort for the final chariot.
Many more images available from the link in my sig..

 

[paul]

that is one heck of a E-trike. very nice indeed

 

[Mike B]

Controllers shut down for 2 reasons, over current & under voltage. Also over temperature, but at 6 seconds I don't think so.

Your controller could be set up for lithium batteries, and 36 volts would be the shut down point at 3V / cell. Lithium batteries are 3.2-3.4 per cell. I would think about adding a 6 volt SLA to get you in lithium range.

 

[vsavoldi]

The website for the controller states 36v 750w with a low voltage cutoff at 31v. Guess it all has to wait till I can call them and ask if they have any ideas. I can see the voltage dropping to about 36.6v under load.

What could cause over current? Motor and Controller are rated 36v 750w that's 20.83a. could something make it pull more?

 

[paul]

i would definitely give them a call. many things can cause a more pull on the electrical system, could be something as simple as a bad connection. i am no expert by any means but i have read elsewhere someone having this kind of problem where it was only a bad connection that needed to be redone. also could be the throttle shorting out

 

[vsavoldi]

Yep just got off the phone with electric scooter parts where I bought the controller and other items totaling over $140 all the guy had was excuses and no real help at all. He couldn't even give me specs on the controller, totally useless parts puller.

Anyway, I will re-examine all the wiring and I did find specs on testing the throttle assembly so I will do that.


I guess I should run the motor through some tests also, how can I check the amps the motor is pulling under load? I guess it could be shorting out under load and tripping the controller?

any ideas for other places to check?

 

[wayne z]

Hey V, welcome to the forum.

That little gas engine had PLENTY power for a trike. Your problem was that it is geared WAY too tall. That's why the clutch was slipping a lot too. For a single chain drive, the driven sprocket would need to be about the same size as the wheel rim. Or, a better method would be to add a jackshaft and get a total ratio of around 18:1 or greater for a trike. You will find that trikes are very twitchey and dangerous to drive over about 20 mph. at this speed just a very slight twich of the handlebars brings up a rear wheel.

The electric idea is lookin real good too.

 

[paul]

try and call the company you got the motor from and maybe they have some ideas. sounds like the company you got the controller from is a bunch of idiots

 

[vsavoldi]

Yep, I have emailed the motor person, it was an ebay auction and he has a lot of motors he's selling so hopefully he will have good information.

It does seem that if I pedal real fast and give it just a little throttle it will continue to run. If I start heading uphill I would need to roll off the throttle as the overall speed slows down. If I try to use the motor to pull me uphill it shuts off.

hmm I did find a speed calculator, You have to enter a bunch of 1's for most items but it still works. http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/gearspeed.html

So with my current setup (11 front 65 rear)my top speed would be around 41mph (super scary fast) if the motor can get to full speed (3400rpm). If I get the largest sprocket I can find (90) it brings it down to 29mph (simply scary fast) so I believe your right Wayne, I am geared wrong.

Front sprocket = 11 tooth
Rear sprocket = 65 tooth
Rear tire diameter is 24 inches
Largest sprocket I can find = 90 tooth and I believe I can just fit it in place but it does not fix it by its'self.

Anyone have any idea how to calculate what my jack shaft sprockets would need to be? Guess I can play with the calculator to bring my top speed down to 20mph presuming I can get to full rpm @3400 which should be possible.

It looks like I need a 2:1 reduction now for the chore of finding the right parts.

Edit: just as I saved this message I get the message from the motor guy, good information..

Dear vsavoldi,

hi,
i would tell you to secure the motor and using pliers keep the shaft from moving and apply 12v to the motor, however i do not want you to damage the motor sprocket. the best i can tell you is to test the motor without the controller with 12 to 24 volts DC. from everything you have told me i think it is the controller. no motor will have lots of running power and no power under load. this motor like most electric motors will use more than 3 times the amound of power starting up. in other words its pulling a lot more than 750 watts and can be pulling alot more than 750 watts under load. some controllers like curtis controllers will say 300 amps 24 volts and will only do 150 amps continuous. i must be honest i do not know as much as i would like to as it relates to controllers. my expertise is really with motors. as far as i know if this motor will run well unloaded than its not the motor.
regards!

So this seems like a need a larger wattage controller than the wattage on the motor?