Mill/Lathe

Discussion in 'Motorized Bicycle General Discussion' started by Dan, Jun 20, 2011.

  1. Allen_Wrench

    Allen_Wrench Resident Mad Scientist

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    Don't panic, Dan. Sure it's a lot of money, but I have faith that you'll find a way to make it work for you. Get to know your machine well, and soon you'll have us coming to you for this or that and waving bills at you.

    Remember: when Burt Munroe was dressing the lobes on his camshaft, all he used was a hand file and the micrometer he had was made from a motorcycle spoke. And look what he was able to do to a 1920 Indian Scout. You'll have a real milling machine with (what looked like) micrometer settings. There won't be much at all you couldn't make. Heck, a couple days alone with that thing, I'll grind out stuff you've never even heard of. They're great! You'll love it. You'll use it lots!
     
  2. jburr36

    jburr36 Member

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    When I drill with a bit mounted in a chuck in the tailstock I noticed that sometimes the drill bits can wander off center as the bit starts cutting into the work piece. This is especially true with smaller bits. What I do is make a clean face on the end of the work piece with the lathe cutting tool then set the compound slider at a 30 degree angle. Then I position the lathe cutting tool to the center of the work piece and make a small dimple in the absolute center. That keeps the drill bits perfectly centered as I start to drill. Also if I'm using bits larger than 1/4" I will drill a pilot hole with a 1/16" to 1/8" bit.

    If you're working with ferrous metals like steels then remember to use a lot cutting oils (cutting oil contains sulfer).

    Also if you're drilling holes deeper than say 1/2" then back the bit out and to clean the shavings off the bit and out of the hole then add come cutting oil (if working with ferrous metals) then proceed to cut another 1/2" and repeat. This way you reduce friction from the shavings which creates heat and noise and helps reduce stress on the bit which makes it cut cleaner.

    If you are making holes that require precision diameters like your bushings I recommend investing in some reamers too.

    A lathe is a very versatile tool. The more you learn how to operate it you'll be amazed how much you can do with it. And since you have a milling machine attached to it I'd invest in a low profile rotary table.
     
  3. 42blue15

    42blue15 New Member

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    From the stuff I have bought, and judging by what I use a lot and don't, here is the accessories I would recommend, in random order. What you need first depends on what you try to do first-

    ...you will need at least one magnetic dial indicator base and dial indicator, because you'll need to be able to check that parts are centered in the lathe chuck. The China dial indicators w/bases are cheap and work to .001", which is good enough for the small China machines. Here's one example-
    LittleMachineShop.com - Dial Indicator and Magnetic Base
    You REALLY want at least one indicator that has a range of 1+ inches.

    ...there is also different point sets for the dial indicators (most dial indicators use the same point threading). This is not critical, but having different points to use does come in handy and everywhere sells them for only like $4. Mostly I only use three points--a 60-degree point, a small "ball end", and a larger "ball end".
    LittleMachineShop.com - Point Set, Dial Indicator

    ...there is the 'other' kind of indicator, that is called a "test indicator", like this-
    LittleMachineShop.com - Dial Test Indicator, 0-15-0 x 0.0005"
    These are good to have, but you can get by without them. The accuracy is usually better than the first kind, but the measuring range is much smaller.

    ...you will want a live center for the lathe tailstock, which is MT2 (I believe). Littlemachineshop has that for $30-
    LittleMachineShop.com - Live Center, 2MT Standard

    ...to make a part in the lathe by turning it "on centers", you will need center drills. This is what they look like. They don't cost much but the little ones break VERY easily...
    LittleMachineShop.com - Center Drills, Set of 5 (Numbers 1-5)

    ...to drill centered holes with the lathe, you need a chuck that fits into the tailstock, $30-
    LittleMachineShop.com - Drill Chuck, 1/2" with 2MT Standard Arbor

    ...a carbide scribe, for scratchin on steel. I use permanent markers for Dykem, mainly because I haven't remembered to order any Dykem yet. :p

    ...You will also need some calipers. There's cheap 8" dial calipers for $25 or so, but you need to check that these are zeroed every time before you use them. There's vernier calipers for $10 or so, but you need to do the math to use them.

    ...I have a set of China micrometer calipers that I haven't ever used. The accuracy of them is finer (.0001") than what these smaller China machines can cut to.

    ...the lathe chuck is a 3-jaw, and likely a scroll chuck. They work great sometimes but tend not to center well, and cannot grab non-round or off-center parts. Since sometimes the 3-jaw will work better and other times the 4-jaw will, it's worth keeping both chucks functional. To get a 4-jaw on there, you'd need the chuck (~$75) plus you need to find out the spindle threads, so you can buy the right back plate (~$65).

    ...I see no milling vise (some 3-in-1's incorporate one into the lathe toolpost). Since these machines don't have a lot of room, I would suggest you consider a screwless vise. Try to get one that has slots cut in the sides and ends, as these are easier to clamp. Here is one at Shar's with the side slots, but other places sell them too- shars.com - Precision Toolmakers Vise 4-7/8" (you may need something to raise the vise up a bit, but it's hard to tell that right now)

    ...you will need some t-nuts to fit the slots of the apron/table surface. Littlemachineshop sells all the smaller sizes, that places like Enco often don't carry at all. Try to get t-nuts that have an English threading, so you can go buy cheap allthread rod at the hardware store, and use that for studs. Yea, the 'real' clamping kits have hardened black-oxide studs, but for 99% of the time, cheap zinc-plated hardware store all-thread rod will work just as well (you can cut it into whatever length you need it). When the rod gets chewed up (the rod is softer than the nuts) you toss the rod, and cut another piece.



    (continued in next post!)
     
  4. 42blue15

    42blue15 New Member

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    (over 10000 character text limit, 10247 characters,,,)

    ...you may want a clamping kit (for milling). They look like this-
    G1075 52 pc. Clamping Kit - 3/8" Bolt Size
    but you need to know the width of the t-slots before you buy a clamping kit. On the smaller machines there's 5/16" and 3/8" slots, as well as a couple possible metric sizes.

    ...If you don't buy a clamping kit, then at the least you will need a piece of steel to make vise hold-down blocks from. This should be maybe 1"x1" and about a foot long. You don't need the vise to make the blocks, you just need to be able to drill a hole that is maybe 1/16" larger than the stud size you will use. So even though you'll only use about three inches of both ends for this, the whole piece of metal has to be long enough for you to hold it by hand to drill the two holes. I can explain this better if you want to know.

    ...if you do want a conventional mill vise, look for a 3-inch or even a 2-inch. There's a 2-inch one around that tilts and turns as well for $130, if it will fit on the machine okay-
    T10058 2" Two-Way Precision Angle Vise

    (-if you want a more-compact tilting-vise setup, another way is to get a bigger and a smaller screwless vise. You clamp the part in the smaller vise, and then you clamp that vise in the larger vise, at whatever angle you need-)

    ...You will need a bench grinder. Harbor Freight has some really cheap ones, but the grinding wheels HF sells (both with the grinders, and separately) tend to be not-very-good quality. Very unbalanced. Aluminum oxide wheel, 60-grit is usual, 80 is okay, anything else is too fine for general use.

    ...you will need something to dress the grinder wheel with. The grinder may come with a tool, but may not. There's pinwheels, diamonds and carbide sticks. I prefer the carbide sticks myself (Enco sells them for a few bucks each).

    ...the mill spindle seems to be MT3, but I'm not sure how to secure a mill bit collet in that machine... does the top cover lift up, exposing a drawbar? Littlemachineshop for one sells the MT3 collets for $14 each, and you only need a 3/8" and maybe a 1/2". (Any mill bit smaller than 3/8" usually still has a 3/8" shank)
    LittleMachineShop.com - Collet, 1/2" 3MT
    -notice that the above collet has a 3/8"-16 thread,,,, which is the same as common UNC 3/8" all-thread rod at the hardware store. Even if your machine uses a metric drawbar, if you can FIT the 3/8" rod through the spindle, you can make the 3/8"-16 collet work here.

    ...for mill bits just get a couple or three each of 1/4" and 1/2" size, HSS or cobalt but not carbide. Tungsten-carbide bits are expen$ive, plus they are damaged by uneven feed rates so they don't last long in manually-operated machines.

    ...You will also probably want at least one fly cutter. Some people make them but Grizzly has a set of three for like $12.
    G5716 Fly Cutter Set, 1/2" Shank
    They use "lathe-type" tool bits, which Grizzly sells, but are cheaper & better selection over at Enco.

    ...Lathe and fly-cutter tool blanks: get them at Enco. HSS works fine but cobalt is a bit harder,,,, harder to shape, but stays sharp longer. You can also get a small set of the cheap brazed carbide lathe bits, it's a good idea to have them around, but for most stuff you won't need them. The HSS and cobalt ends up being more useful, since you can grind them into whatever shapes you want.

    ...for clamping stuff level in the vise, you will need parallels. Forget about the normal ones, they're almost all too big for this. I have a 4-inch 'normal' vise and most of them are too big for that. Get the adjustable type, like these:
    LittleMachineShop.com - Adjustable Parallel Set

    ...a Dremel-style tool and a diamond-plated cutoff wheel: you will (on rare occasion) need to resharpen the scribe tip, or grind chips out of carbide lathe bits. You need a diamond grinder for that. Be very gentle when grinding carbide with this method--if you press too hard, the diamonds on the cutoff wheel heat up, they melt the brazing holding them on, and then they fly away. Also be careful not to breathe carbide grinding dust, it is very bad to inhale.

    ...to drill holes exactly on a center-punched mark or co-axial with an existing hole, you need a coaxial indicator. A USA/name-brand one will cost you $350-$500+, but there's a cheap China one out there for like $75 or so-
    LittleMachineShop.com - Coaxial Centering Indicator
    They have a video showing how its used.
    There's various improvised ways of getting by without this tool, but they are all much slower, much more bother and usually not as accurate.

    ...Somebody mentioned a rotary table. If you get one, I'd STRONGLY suggest you get one that has Brown & Sharp-style dividing plates available. There's 4" and 6" ones that do, none of the 3-inch ones I've found do. You want to get the largest one that will fit usefully on the machine, so you'd need to know the clamping area size first. A 4-inch with dividing plates will cost you ~$150 and a 6-inch will cost ~$350.

    (note that I am not totally certain these are all the exact items you need.... from the jumbled specs, it appears that the mill/drill spindle is an MT3, and the tailstock is an MT2. The lathe spindle will be threaded, but the specs were not given for that-)



    All I can think of right now.... I'm up to about $600 so far, and I've left out the clamping kit, the rotary table and the tilting vise.

    Astonishing, ain't it?
     
    #44 42blue15, Jun 23, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2011
  5. jburr36

    jburr36 Member

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  6. Dan

    Dan Staff
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    Big 'ol truck pulled up today! Is pouring down rain. A little man jumps down grinning and says hello with a Spanish accent.

    He explains to me sending it out with a lift-truck gate would have been an extra charge and "thats how they get ya" We have no way to lower the 463 LBS to the ground. Its pouring. I am bummed, POed and say send it back. He never stopped smiling. He looks at the ladder on the wall and says "we can do it" Expletive love this guy. *Can do attitude* and *always a way work ethic*. We roll the crate off the deck and down on to the ladder that is below and resting on the bumper/rail. Slide it to the ground like we worked together for yrs. Hand trucked it up the drive and into the garage.

    Mostly due to the price, I really thought this was a big bench top machine. It is if ya have one huge bench.

    Am rereading each and every post. Decided not to even plug this thing in b4 doing a whole lot more reading.

    For some reason, only some phone cam pics can be sent. But will post better pics. Is a really great looking machine.


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Dan

    Dan Staff
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    [​IMG]

    having trouble with the phone cam.

    [​IMG]

    (shelly meeting a kitten. notice her licking her lips? snork)
     
  8. Jim C

    Jim C Member

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    You are going to need to be carefull if you try to hold an end mill or a fly cutter in a drill chuck you may get hurt. Does it have collets? Can you remove the square turret tool holder and mount a vice? It looks pretty good as a lathe I would have lots of questions as a milling machine. I would sure love to play with it and see what it will do.
    Retired Tool & Die maker/ Prototype Machinist/Jig & Fixture Builder/ Machine Builder
     
  9. Dan

    Dan Staff
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    Oh Man! I am slowly piecing together what you guys are telling me. Is new language. I have to look up when you say a part or tool. But is coming together. Thanks for sharing with a newbie!!!!

    It is not gonna be hard to make the bushing I need/want. Could have bought one/parts and cobbled it together but like a MB, could'a just bought a scooter. This is just way cooler! (even if it does take a month or 3 to pay off, snork)

    A Buddy just stopped by. He used to be a part maker and is a hot-rod guy. But turns out we have a mutual friend who has a table that is for sale. Might get it for scrap price. He also mentioned some retired machinist friends he had he might bring by.

    I really can see how to make the 1st 2 things I want to try. Really cool feeling.

    Would have taken me months of trial and error trying to figure out some of this with out you guys.

    Only way I can return the favor, if ya want to know how to steer large ships, lift massive weights with ease or tie knots, lemme know!
     
  10. biknut

    biknut Active Member

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    If it were me that had a new Harbor Freight Mill/Lathe, after I got good at using it, I would make everyone that posted on this thread their very own mill/lathe and give it to them. Aren't I great?
     
  11. camlifter

    camlifter Active Member

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    is the taper of the mill head and the tail stock the same. (i hope so) if it is you can put collet holder in the tail and use end mills in it that way. when drilling with the lathe always first start the hole with a centering drill bit, then put in the size drill you want. if it's a large dia. hole drill it smaller first and step up the size untill your at the size you want.
     
  12. 42blue15

    42blue15 New Member

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    You're lucky that he was willing to cheat for you.
    If the item is heavy (~150+ lbs) then normally (for residential deliveries) you must pay for lift gate service unless you have a forklift to get the item off. The freight company should phone you and ask about this, as well as give a delivery date/time estimate.

    Even if the item isn't heavy enough to require lift gate service to a residential address, the truck driver is not supposed to improvise, and he isn't required to lift a finger to help.

    If you can't get it off, then just tell the driver to take it back to the freight depot, and you go the next day and pick it up from there. You use a pickup truck or a rental truck or trailer. The freight depot will have a forklift to get it onto your vehicle, and from then on it's your problem.

    If you order a big amount of stuff, like thousands of dollars--sometimes the freight company will toss in lift gate service for free. But they still need to call and ask that, since most of their trucks won't have lift gates.

    Even the little cheapo China machines don't use a drill chuck for milling.
     
  13. Dan

    Dan Staff
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    LOL, yea ya are. Not for this but hey. (snork)

    Took me forever to find a quote/exchange by you yesterday in the bumper sticker thread. But just got some one upset by quoting them before asking. So meant to write you and forgot. (Was really funny) Deleted that it was by you. Guy I upset was really upset so airing on the side of caution.

    When you said "Make one" here. I looked over my shoulder and thought, wow, wonder if I could! That would be purty dang awesome! (might have to start smaller!)

    It is! (same size) Was one of the questions I had but did not know how to word/ask.

    Absolutely 42. Aside from that, really was pouring rain. He went to leave and I said; "No, no your taking a tip" He said no 3 times. I used some colorful words saying he was and went to go in the house to grab him a $20. I was locked out! and he sorta ran and hoped up in his truck and was off. Gonna write his company today (not mentioning any thing about how we got it off the truck)

    Really is an exemplary Human.
     
  14. 42blue15

    42blue15 New Member

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    Re: milling spindle / tailstock size, both look like they are #2 and the lathe spindle is #3. In the specs, the mill spindle and tailstock tapers are given and the third unspecified one is likely the lathe headstock taper.

    Anyway--Littlemachineshop should have 2MT milling collets, and you need a drawbar too for mounting the milling collets. The drawbars are usually particular to the machine, so it might have that already, just left sitting in the spindle. If not, you can probably buy a 'real' one, or make a cheap one yourself.

    In a milling machine with an Morse-taper spindle, the drill-chuck is for drill bits only and isn't ever used with mill bits, fly cutters, boring heads, reamers or any other kind of real mill bit. The reason is that the drill chuck+arbor isn't usually held in with a drawbar, so it will get pulled downwards out of the spindle while you're working. Even if you are only drilling it can also fall out if the hole/arbor is not perfectly clean, or you drill a lot of holes without tapping it back in (upwards) with a brass hammer now and then.

    If you want a retained drill chuck for the added security (of never having it fall out while you're working) you can get one, but the machine probably didn't come with one. The arbors don't cost much and you may even be able to take the drill chuck you have off the tang arbor and put it on the new drawbar arbor, if the drill chuck is removable (some cheap drill chucks+arbors are all made as one piece).

    A normal 2MT taper drill chuck arbor looks like this, with a flat tang on the upper end-
    LittleMachineShop.com - Arbor, Drill Chuck 2MT Tang to 2JT
    A drawbar-type arbor has a threaded hole on the upper end, like this-
    LittleMachineShop.com - Arbor, Drill Chuck 2MT Drawbar to 2JT

    Both of the above arbors are for a #2MT spindle and both are for mounting a drill chuck (on the #2 Jacobs taper on the short ends) but the way that they are secured in the spindle is different.





    The cost of it all is imposing if you consider it all at once, but you don't need everything at once either. Ask here or over on Chaski, say what you're trying to do and somebody will know the name of the accessory that you need to do it. You're just going to have a 'wish list" of little doohickeys for a looooong time.
     
  15. Dan

    Dan Staff
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    Is really funny how this information makes me wee lil brain reel. Slowly, this is becoming less daunting and frankly, less scary. (rational folks don't buy $800 tools with out knowing how to use em)

    Just to double check, retried looking at parts that could do this bushing and although it might work, (might) would never be happy or feel like it was not gonna fail. So again, I am good and thrilled with this monster.

    A while back, bought a mig and the folks here walked me threw learning to work with it. I am no welder but man, that too opened new worlds and this has way more potential. Well, apples and oranges I guess.


    LOL, rambled there and really just wanted to ask, any thoughts on material for the bushing? Most mass produced ones seem to be steel? Also, will be mighty thin. Am a bit worried about that but it will have no wiggle room.
     
  16. 42blue15

    42blue15 New Member

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    5/8" to 3/4" would be 1/16th thick, that's not real thin. Any kind of structural steel should work. Mild steel too, maybe even cut it down from a piece of black pipe. But you need to cut the black pipe down from BOTH directions, to expose clean smooth metal. So, if you could find a piece of pipe that is 1/2" ID and 13/16" OD that would work--but a piece of black pipe that is 5/8" ID and 3/4" OD but a little lumpy will not.

    ---------

    First question I have is how will the CVT be rotationally-secured on the engine's shaft? is there a keyway in the engine's shaft and in the CVT input, and are the two keyways the same width? The key may need to retain the bushing from working out, meaning that you may need to cut a closed slot into the bushing. To cut the keyway you will need the vise & vise hold-downs, the 3/8" mill collet and drawbar, an end mill (or two) in the smaller of the two keyway widths, and a drill bit that is about 75% of the diameter of the end mills.

    The key itself you may need to make, since it will need to be extra-tall (not square). You can use aluminum or brass, just put a bit of anti-seize compound on it before assembling things.

    --------

    The second problem gets back to the 3-jaw chuck.... they don't really center well. Which to a machinist, means within .001" or so. You would need the first item I mentioned (the dial indicator w/magnetic base) to check that.

    Here is the problem that happens with cheap 3-jaw chucks: if you make cuts on a part, take it out of the lathe to test-fit it, and then want to put it back in the lathe to cut on it again,,,,, the second cuts are NOT going to be coaxial with the first.

    If you tighten all three of the lathe chuck pinions gradually and equally, that helps with centering. You may get the error down to .003" or less if you're lucky--but still doesn't guarantee it will be perfect. And you cannot just eyeball things, since being just .005" off can make many parts unusable.

    If you want to try to make this bushing without a 4-jaw chuck and without a dial indicator, you can do that but you should not remove the part from the lathe chuck to test fit it to the engine & CVT. You will need to hold the engine and CVT up to the part still clamped in the lathe chuck to test-fit them.

    The dial or vernier calipers would help a lot here also.... what I do is cut a part to .01" too big (for an outside measurement) or too small (for a hole), and then start working it down in very light cuts until it is the exact size needed.
     
  17. jburr36

    jburr36 Member

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    What I would do in this situation is turn a dummy shaft that has precisely the same diameter of the real shaft on the engine and cvt. It's much easier to test fit a short piece of steel into a part that is held in the lathe chuck than try to position the cvt and engine to it.

    Blue is exactly correct about removing the part from a lathe chuck to test fit and putting it back to shave a bit more off. You will no doubt encounter some slight runout and the lathe will cut more off than you intended or the center bore will not be properly aligned in the center any longer.

    Collets are excellent for reducing runout when removing a part for a test fit but they are kind of expensive.

    The more you work with the lathe the more you will come up with techniques that will make your project a whole lot easier.
     
  18. jburr36

    jburr36 Member

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    If I recall the bushing should be made out of something a tad less hard than the shaft that fits into it. Theory is that you'll want the bearing to wear and not the shaft that goes into it. If a shaft is made out of hardened carbon steel than regular soft steel should be fine.

    soft steel shafts or shafts plated with nickel usually have brass bearings. Most household ac motors have brass bearings.
     
  19. Allen_Wrench

    Allen_Wrench Resident Mad Scientist

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    Yeah, machining a small chunk of brass should be no problem for this thing. It also sounds easier than the idea I had: if you really want to do some metal casting, you could melt down some bronze welding rods in a small crucible. You could cast it in a small mold made of clay, plaster, casting sand may be best. Cuttle bone might not be deep enough. You could make the mold relief a little on the heavy side so that you could machine to tolerances.
     
  20. NEAT TIMES

    NEAT TIMES New Member

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    Just a thought

    IS BRASS SHIM STOCK AVAILABLE IN .125" ? USED SHIM STOCK ON PROJECTS AND IT WORKED WELL FOR ME.

    RON
     

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